Colostrum Conundrum

[Daniel Lee]

I have a small herd of registered angus cows. In one pasture, I ran six mother cows nursing 5-month-old calves, and additionally, a heifer (#113) and a cow (#296), both springing @ 6 and 7 months, respectively. In my late afternoon cube feedings, it was quite common for the calves to nurse another cow other than his dam. I was befuddled one afternoon when I caught bull calf #154 latched on to the expectant heifer (#113) and nurse her as well. I chased him off of the heifer several times during the course of time. At first I assumed he was getting no milk. But she had developed a small bag, and I finally concluded he must be getting something. (I wondered if she had aborted and he was getting milk as a result.) ......Zoom ahead two months......The springing cow (#296) went missing and came up the next night with a large, gangly heifer calf running circles around her. Next night the cow came up alone. I searched for the calf. No luck. Next night the cow didn't show. I made my way through the thick underbrush in a wooded area at dusk and found both. The calf could stand, but was listless. The next morning, my help & I loaded the cow & calf and headed for the vet. Dr. "A" suspected that the calf had not gotten a sufficient amount of colostrum and administered some right away. The prognosis was not good. After several days of treatment, the blood test returned, with only a faint amount of colostrum present. We lost the baby calf. I puzzled about the loss. It was now time to wean the 6 calves--bull calf #154 was one of them......Skip ahead another month......The springing heifer #113 delivered a small bull calf without a problem. (Much earlier She had blood tested pregnant. But after bull calf #154 was caught nursing her over a period of time, I had her palpated to confirm she had not aborted.) Her baby calf is now 4 days old. In fact, this past evening, it scampered away when I walked upon it unnoticed. Still, I'm a bit uneasy about the future of this 113's baby calf. Why? I wonder if bull calf #154 (& others of those 6 calves) consumed the colostrum from the #296 cow who lost her calf from the lack of colostrum, as well as this #113 heifer with the new baby--even though the 6 weaned calves have been separated from her and the other cows for almost a month, now). Any thoughts? And what about a heifer producing milk at more than 2 months before calving?

 

[M-5]

I have my comments but will differ to the experts on this.

 

[cowgirl8]

Did the vet check to see if #296's udder was even working? Being nursed on dry, specially heifers, will ruin an udder. Getting no colostrum is not a death sentence. A few days with no milk for a new calf and they will dehydrate and slowly die even if you step in to help(if too much time has passed).....The bull was probably getting colostrum or something, but may have just like nursing out of hope of maybe getting something.
Not sure why the vet gave the calf colostrum, unless they felt you misjudged the days. After 24 hours it wont help. What the vet should have done and maybe did, is drench the calf with electrolytes or give via IV...If the calf was dehydrated, giving it colostrum would most than likely kill it. But thats if they didnt give electrolytes too...

 

[M-5]

How will giving colostrum kill the calf. ??

 

[Nesikep]

I had a heifer that got nursed on by calves, and she never did make much milk... 2nd calf and she's not much better now. I've also had a cow that was an excellent milker have good colostrum for her calf and never make any milk after that.. no idea what happened there. It definitely isn't good when calves nurse cows that ought to be dry, they don't necessarily get anything out of it except it's like a pacifier... bottle calves don't get anything out of sucking on your fingers but they sure enjoy it.

 

[cowgirl8]

How will giving colostrum kill the calf. ??

If they are dehydrated their organs cant handle digesting it. If their kidneys are on the verge of shutting down, you dont what to pump them up with milk or colostrum..will kill them every time.

 

[M-5]

How will giving colostrum kill the calf. ??

If they are dehydrated their organs cant handle digesting it. If their kidneys are on the verge of shutting down, you dont what to pump them up with milk or colostrum..will kill them every time.

if kidneys are shutting down its likley nothing will bring them back. I'll wait for and expert to weigh in. BTW colostrum can be beneficial after 24 hours.

 

[fenceman]

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/VY/VY-55.html
I haven't had to bottle feed many calves. But I've bottle raised hundreds of lambs. Its common for sheep to reject a twin . it's been my observation that colostrum is key to survival. A lamb receiving colostrum at any time is many times more likely to survive than one that doesn't. How this compares to cattle Idk. I've included a link for you. As dash says maybe one of our vets will chime in.
Good luck.

 

[cowgirl8]

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=99284

 

[M-5]

Can you quote where a expert (vet) said that feeding colostrum to a weak calf would kill them.

 

[regolith]

Suckling heifers in pregnancy can bring them into milk early - they don't produce true colostrum in that instance. Had two in milk at about six months pregnant, separated them, they sprung up over the next few days then dried down again and the one I kept bagged up and calved normally a few months later (I sold the other, presume she did the same for her new owner).

Ideally late in-calf females shouldn't be run with calves who are likely to suckle on them. In practice, I usually find if the calf does start suckling the cow initiated it; as most will simply kick them off and move away when they try.
It would have been better to have separated your heifer earlier, but at this point there's no real point in worrying - it's too late to intervene with colostrum and it sounds like the calf is doing fine.
In future instances, if you have a cow who may have compromised colostrum the idea is to watch her calve, sneak in between them and bottle-feed the calf with good colostrum before it feeds off her. Now that is much easier said than done.

 

[cowgirl8]

Can you quote where a expert (vet) said that feeding colostrum to a weak calf would kill them.

Not sure what part of not giving a dehydrated calf too much to digest is hard to understand. There is a difference between starving and dehydration. A calf who is weak from illness or a hard birth is different from a calf who has had nothing to eat in the summer for days. You treat the dehydration first, then address the need to feed it.

 

[cowgirl8]

Can you quote where a expert (vet) said that feeding colostrum to a weak calf would kill them.

Maybe this will be easier to understand. You have a calf who you find a few days after birth and see that it never nursed for whatever reasons, nonworking udder, bad mother, hard birth.....doesnt matter. Its been several days, colostrum will not benefit after 24 hours as it says in linked post. After a couple days its guaranteed dehydrated, probably spent its first couple days working hard to nurse spending a lot of energy that did not get replaced.. Drenching it with milk or colostrum replacement, it takes water in the body to digest a dehydrated animal does not have. Its like why when stranded on the ocean you cant drink the ocean water. It takes more water to digest the salt in ocean water, thus, using up what what you have to run your organs. Organs are compromised and you die faster if you drink salt water. Same thing with a dehydrated animal, even really dehydrated you can bring them back even if the organs are on the verge of shutting down. If they are on that fine line, giving it anything it has to digest will kill it... You do not give anything that takes water to digest, you give electrolytes with water until you're sure its hydrated enough to handle something that takes water to digest...... Not a vet issue, its something anyone should know.

 

[M-5]

DANG, I didn't Know I was so stupid and cant understand things. I really need to change the way I do it cause my calves don't DIE like they are supposed too. As soon as I get thru with this message im gonna write some of the experts and tell them their studies that show the benefits of feeding colostrum after 24 hours is a bunch of malarkey. I really thank you for your enlightenment today and to think I didn't come here to learn anything

 

[cowgirl8]

DANG, I didn't Know I was so stupid and cant understand things. I really need to change the way I do it cause my calves don't DIE like they are supposed too. As soon as I get thru with this message im gonna write some of the experts and tell them their studies that show the benefits of feeding colostrum after 24 hours is a bunch of malarkey. I really thank you for your enlightenment today and to think I didn't come here to learn anything

Werent you asking.....Did i see something wrong? In fact you asked twice... But to clarify, you can feed any weak animal colostrum if you want to spend the extra money after 24 hours, you cant feed to a dehydrated calf....There is a difference.

 

[M-5]

DANG, I didn't Know I was so stupid and cant understand things. I really need to change the way I do it cause my calves don't DIE like they are supposed too. As soon as I get thru with this message im gonna write some of the experts and tell them their studies that show the benefits of feeding colostrum after 24 hours is a bunch of malarkey. I really thank you for your enlightenment today and to think I didn't come here to learn anything

Werent you asking.....Did i see something wrong? In fact you asked twice... But to clarify, you can feed any weak animal colostrum if you want to spend the extra money after 24 hours, you cant feed to a dehydrated calf....There is a difference.

If the calf didn't suck its dehydrated , sweetheart. I asked for an expert (vet) to chime in. When trouble calves are found and they are dehydrated it is standard procedure to give the fluids. electrolytes and or replacer , colostrum. Some experts recommend only removing them off milk for one feeding. giving them milk / colostrum does not KILL them. They die from lack of nutrition. Now you can make matters worse buy not mixing the replacement fluids correctly. I am not a vet and my suggestions are from experience and I have saved numerous calves that were on the verge of dying buy using a electrolytes and replacer feedings. You have to be careful spewing rhetoric as the end all standard. and again I ask that you show me where feeding replacer/colostrum is documented to kill them. and I will bow to you vast bovine knowledge.

 

[M-5]

"There are some quick and simple ways to evaluate dehydration levels of scouring or heat stressed calves by examining skin tenting, gum condition, attitude, and ability to stand or suckle. For example, a calf with diarrhea but no other clinical signs and a strong suckling reflex could be 5-6% dehydrated. Calves showing mild depression, weakness and sunken eyes but still sucking is 6-8% dehydrated. A calf that will not stand and has cool extremities is in serious condition with a dehydration level of 10-14%. Death usually occurs at 14% dehydration."

"Calves receiving electrolytes still need milk or milk replacer to supply energy and protein. The University of Illinois studied the following milk and electrolyte therapies: 1) electrolytes only for two days, with slow incorporation of milk for 7 days; 2) partial removal of milk during therapy; 3) full feeding of milk and electrolytes for 7 days. Fecal scores did not differ between treatment groups, although bodyweights were higher for treatments that included milk in some way. Calves benefited the most when full milk feeding was followed by daily electrolyte therapy."

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/dairyt ... ration.pdf

 

[cowgirl8]

Please dont turn this into another one of your rants, get over it and move on....

 

[Katpau]

DANG, I didn't Know I was so stupid and cant understand things. I really need to change the way I do it cause my calves don't DIE like they are supposed too. As soon as I get thru with this message im gonna write some of the experts and tell them their studies that show the benefits of feeding colostrum after 24 hours is a bunch of malarkey. I really thank you for your enlightenment today and to think I didn't come here to learn anything

Werent you asking.....Did i see something wrong? In fact you asked twice... But to clarify, you can feed any weak animal colostrum if you want to spend the extra money after 24 hours, you cant feed to a dehydrated calf....There is a difference.

If the calf didn't suck its dehydrated , sweetheart. I asked for an expert (vet) to chime in. When trouble calves are found and they are dehydrated it is standard procedure to give the fluids. electrolytes and or replacer , colostrum. Some experts recommend only removing them off milk for one feeding. giving them milk / colostrum does not KILL them. They die from lack of nutrition. Now you can make matters worse buy not mixing the replacement fluids correctly. I am not a vet and my suggestions are from experience and I have saved numerous calves that were on the verge of dying buy using a electrolytes and replacer feedings. You have to be careful spewing rhetoric as the end all standard. and again I ask that you show me where feeding replacer/colostrum is documented to kill them. and I will bow to you vast bovine knowledge.

Not every calf that has not sucked is dehydrated. I had one this year that I discovered was not sucking on day 3. He was somehow smart enough to drink water which I watched him do, but not smart enough to find the cows teats. He was weak and losing weight when I found him, but he was quite determined to suckle only the extra blind teats located on the back of the cows udder. I was able to give him a bottle of the cows milk and then help him figure out where the teats were located.

I am not sure what you are arguing about. You both agree that a dehydrated calf needs electrolyes NOT colustrum. I was told by Vets in the past that I should NOT give ANY colustrum until the problems with dehydration were corrected and once I begin to use Milk Replacer, to mix that Replacer thin by adding extra water for the first feeding or two. They will not die from starvation as quickly as they will from dehydration. There should be enough energy in the electrolytes to keep them going until the problem with dehydration has been addressed.

Incidentally, all of the studies I have read say that the calf is only able to absorb the antibodies it needs from colustrum for approximately the first 24 hours, There are other good things in that first milk that are of value to the calf so both of you are right. I agree with cowgirl 8 that feeding colustrum after 24 hours is an expensive waste of colustrum that might be better used on another calf, but there is no harm and certainly some good to be had from feeding it if you have plenty on hand.

Here is an quote from an article on feeding colustrum:
"Feed colostrum within one hour after birth. At best, only 25 to 30 percent of the antibodies a calf consumes ever reach the bloodstream. Within six hours, the average ability of the gut walls to absorb immunoglobulins decreases by one third. By 24 hours, the walls absorb less than 10 percent of what could originally be absorbed.
Approximately 35 percent of ingested immunoglobulins can be absorbed when calves are fed colostrum immediately after birth, but this declines to less than 5 percent absorption of immunoglobulins when calves are fed 20 hours after birth. The rate at which gut closure occurs varies from calf to calf, with some calves unable to absorb immunoglobulins10 hours after birth."

 

[cowgirl8]

I have no idea why he keeps coming back to disagree with me....The sake of arguing i guess...