Travlr
Well-known member
Then sell the heifers and buy some unrelated, bred cows. You'll be money ahead if you choose wisely.
Conundrum
- Thread starter Ky hills
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Ky hills
Well-known member
Good logical suggestion but part of the conundrum, my experience with buying bred cows is a bust. While we really like something's about the bull he is for all intents and purposes on of those aforementioned curve benders that it takes the calves a while to grow. His calves do decent growth wise but nothing really impressive on a consistent level. It's like sell him and get another version of him that may or may not be better, or buy cows that may be problems themselves.
I'm kind of bouncing around several options.
Travlr
Well-known member
Tell me why you have issues buying bred cows. What kind of problems have you bought? Sale barn or private? Do you know any of the people around you that have cattle you admire?
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Bred heifers would bring a premium in this part of the world come spring.
They would make a new bull purchase look appealing.
They would make a new bull purchase look appealing.
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Ky hills
Well-known member
Over the years I've bought cows private and stockyards, registered and commercial and it's about the same either way, if they are selling them it's a good chance they are culls. There are some good herds around but they don't readily let go of them unless it's an old cow ready to cull or a younger bottom end cow. If you do come across good young cows it's out of our price range to chance.
It's a longer program but we've had better success with buying heifers.
And then there's my partner ( wife ) who has been in on some of the cow buying and said no when I mentioned the angle of buying cows earlier today
Travlr
Well-known member
Yeah, once bit, twice shy, as they say...Over the years I've bought cows private and stockyards, registered and commercial and it's about the same either way, if they are selling them it's a good chance they are culls. There are some good herds around but they don't readily let go of them unless it's an old cow ready to cull or a younger bottom end cow. If you do come across good young cows it's out of our price range to chance.
It's a longer program but we've had better success with buying heifers.
And then there's my partner ( wife ) who has been in on some of the cow buying and said no when I mentioned the angle of buying cows earlier today
I've been lucky and I admit it. But I also learned from being lucky. And I spent a lot of time helping vets at the sale barns doing preg checking and bangs testing, and learned from them. One of the methods I learned was to find the locals with the best cattle and be patient. Sometimes they needed to buy something and would sell some good cows. Mostly I'd just buy the cows culled for age, knowing I'd be sending half of them back in a year, and half of the remaining the next year, and they'd all be gone after three years. What I paid for them to begin with was pretty much what I got for them on their return trip, so I was basically getting their calves for the price of the hay I fed them plus regular incidentals/inputs. Of course older cows did have their problems. Probably the most common were the huge teats that were too large for a calf and I would have to milk them out so they were small enough for the calf to grip. Watch them carefully for condition and send them down the road when they couldn't keep up. I very rarely kept heifers. I had a few people that wanted me to supply them with bulls but I never got into that.
EPD's on each individual animal in the Canadian and American Simmental Associations are exactly the same and have been for several years. However the percentile rank differs between the two associations due to the different populations registered with each. An example of a bull that has seen significant use in both countries is W/C Bankroll 811D has a CE of 12.2 in both countries which is in the top 15% in Canada but only the top 40 % in the USA.
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Ky hills
Well-known member
Yeah, older cows were pretty much what we bought. Tried to pay attention to udders as best I could but still ended up with one with a big bad udder, and a few that didn't milk well. Had to feed them extra. Just a lot of extra expense and work.
I know most don't agree, but we just like working with heifers. Buy them young they gentle down and settle into our management takes a lot of time to get a calf ready to sell but then they have the rest of their lives ahead of them.
We've had better success with starting out heifers as opposed to older cows. There's quite a bit of culling in both but the heifers that work last a lot longer.
Much rather calve bought heifers than old cull cows.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Here's my take:
Four (commercial?) crossbred heifers. If the bull has no KNOWN genetic defects, based on his pedigree, the likelihood of him siring defective calves out of his own daughters is infintesimally small. If you like him and what he brings to the table, you'll just be concentrating those good traits in his second-generation calves. If you don't like what you get, you can sell them; someone will buy them, and I'll bet that the vast majority of buyers won't care that they are the result of a father/daughter mating... if they even know.
That said, if he happens to be the 'founder' of a new genetic defect all his own, there is a 12.5% probability that any given calf out of this group of heifers might express that defect as a homozygote. Been there, got the t-shirt.
But, I'd take the chance again, if AI was not a possibility and I had a good bull that I liked, and only had 4 to breed... hard to justify buying a new bull for 4 commercial heifers.
Four (commercial?) crossbred heifers. If the bull has no KNOWN genetic defects, based on his pedigree, the likelihood of him siring defective calves out of his own daughters is infintesimally small. If you like him and what he brings to the table, you'll just be concentrating those good traits in his second-generation calves. If you don't like what you get, you can sell them; someone will buy them, and I'll bet that the vast majority of buyers won't care that they are the result of a father/daughter mating... if they even know.
That said, if he happens to be the 'founder' of a new genetic defect all his own, there is a 12.5% probability that any given calf out of this group of heifers might express that defect as a homozygote. Been there, got the t-shirt.
But, I'd take the chance again, if AI was not a possibility and I had a good bull that I liked, and only had 4 to breed... hard to justify buying a new bull for 4 commercial heifers.
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simme
Old Dumb Guy
Thanks for straightening that out. At a glance of the different averages and percentiles, I incorrectly assumed that the bases were different. But they are the same as you pointed out. Which leads to a conclusion that an average present day Canadian simmental is different than a US simmental. Appears that the Canadian simmental are closer to the original simmentals while the US versions have seen a little more change.
I would have no issue breeding them back to the father as long as all the calves are terminal. Yes, I do it, am currently doing it, and will continue to do it in the future. It gives you the flexibility to buy a new bull when ever you would like.
You have kind of already done it with the heifer that has the same genetics on both sides. That one would be too much for me and I would probably sell it for a purchased outcross.
The question would be how good is your current bull? If the heifers you are keeping out of him are exceptional, then you may want to continue with him as long as possible. If they are good, but you can buy his caliber or better, and are ready, its probably best just to swap now and move on with the breeding program. Salvage price on a good bull can be great if you show his offspring and market him. Even packer prices are pretty good, worse case.
You have kind of already done it with the heifer that has the same genetics on both sides. That one would be too much for me and I would probably sell it for a purchased outcross.
The question would be how good is your current bull? If the heifers you are keeping out of him are exceptional, then you may want to continue with him as long as possible. If they are good, but you can buy his caliber or better, and are ready, its probably best just to swap now and move on with the breeding program. Salvage price on a good bull can be great if you show his offspring and market him. Even packer prices are pretty good, worse case.
I'd be breeding them to their sire. You could get some real good ones. Worst case, sell their calves next year and find a bull.
I really like your animals that I've seen. I wouldn't fret doing it once. You really like the bull, so...
I really like your animals that I've seen. I wouldn't fret doing it once. You really like the bull, so...
Travlr
Well-known member
I'm slowly beginning to have a light bulb get brighter in my brain. It's no wonder the cattle of today are so fragile and incapable compared to yesteryears. And why other countries have better animals too.
mwj
Well-known member
Which ''other countries'' do you think have better cattle as a whole? What do you consider ''fragile'' cattle?
