Conundrum

[Ky hills]

Just throwing around ideas, and looking to see what y'all would do?
We have 4 fall heifers almost ready to breed, 3 RWF and 1 BWF.
Our heifer bull is their sire.
We have some heifers due this spring in which some are going to be father daughter matings too, but in this fall group sone of them are hitting on both sides being related. We are at the point where we realize the need for outcross genetics, and need to go with a different bull. Should we go ahead and breed them to him or sell those heifers and buy different heifers some nice we are going to try to buy a few more anyway and get another season out of the bull?
My wife is wondering about using our Simmental bull on those heifers but he is not a heifer bull? I'm not overly comfortable with that option since he has an 8.6 CE and 3.8 BW and it would be on Hereford/Angus cross heifers.

 

[Silver]

What is wrong with 8.6 CE?

 

[Travlr]

Just throwing around ideas, and looking to see what y'all would do?
We have 4 fall heifers almost ready to breed, 3 RWF and 1 BWF.
Our heifer bull is their sire.
We have some heifers due this spring in which some are going to be father daughter matings too, but in this fall group sone of them are hitting on both sides being related. We are at the point where we realize the need for outcross genetics, and need to go with a different bull. Should we go ahead and breed them to him or sell those heifers and buy different heifers some nice we are going to try to buy a few more anyway and get another season out of the bull?
My wife is wondering about using our Simmental bull on those heifers but he is not a heifer bull? I'm not overly comfortable with that option since he has an 8.6 CE and 3.8 BW and it would be on Hereford/Angus cross heifers.

Time to trade bulls...

Lot's of people here have expressed a lack of concern with inbreeding but I'm of the opinion that inbreeding is just as chancy with animals as with people. It all comes down to your risk tolerance. I play poker and regularly come home in the money, and I would never use a bull on his daughters. I'm sure others will have the opposite opinion.

 

[coachg]

I'd get a new bull or AI

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

What is wrong with 8.6 CE?

I have used 9 CE on heifers, but my heifers are really good size. +12 is "generally" a safer CE for for most heifers. The +3.8 BW is pushing it.
I use quite a few bulls with horrible CE - BW on cows. Like +0 CE +8 BW. Have never had a calving problem, but he definitely puts big calves on the ground. Even if a bull calf is under 100#, I castrate - no question. I cannot take a chance of the bull producing 1 calving difficulty and the new owner would bad mouth my farm.

@Ky hills why don't you AI them - just once - if they settle, hang on to them, if open - then ship?? I can recommend some good choices!!

 

[Warren Allison]

I'd get a new bull or AI

I second that motion, @Ky hills

 

[simme]

What is wrong with 8.6 CE?

For US simmental epd's, 8.6 CE is the bottom 17% of the breed. 3.8 BW is the bottom 8% of the breed. So definitely not a heifer bull, especially for hereford/angus crosses.

I think Canadian epd's are different base. Looks like CE 7.7 is midpoint (50%) in Canada. 7.7 is about 90 percentile in the US (bottom 10%). US midpoint is 11.2

Another example to not compare epd's directly between breeds. But also, not between countries either.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Oh yes, sorry failed to think about that!!!

 

[SDM]

If you could AI them and use pops for clean-up, that's what I'd do. Of course that's gonna depend on if you do it, a neighbor, a technician, vet....here, 4 would be about $300 if you sync them and SS breeds them, including the semen. Or about that for me a few years ago.

 

[Stickney94]

Just throwing around ideas, and looking to see what y'all would do?
We have 4 fall heifers almost ready to breed, 3 RWF and 1 BWF.
Our heifer bull is their sire.
We have some heifers due this spring in which some are going to be father daughter matings too, but in this fall group sone of them are hitting on both sides being related. We are at the point where we realize the need for outcross genetics, and need to go with a different bull. Should we go ahead and breed them to him or sell those heifers and buy different heifers some nice we are going to try to buy a few more anyway and get another season out of the bull?
My wife is wondering about using our Simmental bull on those heifers but he is not a heifer bull? I'm not overly comfortable with that option since he has an 8.6 CE and 3.8 BW and it would be on Hereford/Angus cross heifers.

What's your budget and what's your risk tolerance? What are your goals? If your budget is low and your goal is to just get a calf the answer may be different than if you have $$ and your goal is producing breeding stock. If you have facilities and time AI is a very good solution to this particular scenario, imo.

 

[Warren Allison]

Just throwing around ideas, and looking to see what y'all would do?
We have 4 fall heifers almost ready to breed, 3 RWF and 1 BWF.
Our heifer bull is their sire.
We have some heifers due this spring in which some are going to be father daughter matings too, but in this fall group sone of them are hitting on both sides being related. We are at the point where we realize the need for outcross genetics, and need to go with a different bull. Should we go ahead and breed them to him or sell those heifers and buy different heifers some nice we are going to try to buy a few more anyway and get another season out of the bull?
My wife is wondering about using our Simmental bull on those heifers but he is not a heifer bull? I'm not overly comfortable with that option since he has an 8.6 CE and 3.8 BW and it would be on Hereford/Angus cross heifers.

I'd sell the bull. Easier to find a new bull than 4 good replacement heifers Plus, this spring you'd be in the same mess again if those heifers are his daughters as well. If you run out of time on those 4 before you get a bull, then AI them.

Edited to add: Orrrrr....you been toying with the idea for a while now anyway. Why not Ai those 4 using sexed Brangus semen? You'd get yourself 4 pretty little polled black heifers with a touch of ear.

 

[Silver]

For US simmental epd's, 8.6 CE is the bottom 17% of the breed. 3.8 BW is the bottom 8% of the breed. So definitely not a heifer bull, especially for hereford/angus crosses.

I think Canadian epd's are different base. Looks like CE 7.7 is midpoint (50%) in Canada. 7.7 is about 90 percentile in the US (bottom 10%). US midpoint is 11.2

Another example to not compare epd's directly between breeds. But also, not between countries either.

Odd how they can't harmonize the numbers across the board.
I tried to buy a bull a couple of weeks ago that had a CE of 2.7. His sire was 1.3. But several people wanted him more than I did so I did not end up with him. His birthweight was good enough for me so I didn't give the CE much consideration.

 

[simme]

Does a higher birth weight bull mean a higher growth calf? Does a lower bw bull ensure a lower growth calf? Back in the good old days, that seemed to be the case.

Here are some examples from my cattle in recent years.

Bull calf with bw of 54 pounds. Adjusted ww of 785 pounds. Sire is 50 percentile for CE, 40% for bw, 20% for ww. Dam is 25% CE, 4% BW, 99% WW.
Heifer calf with bw of 67 pounds. Adjusted WW of 534 pounds. Sire is 95% CE, 45% BW, 60% WW. Same dam as above.

Heifer calf with bw of 75 pounds. Adjusted ww of 691 pounds. Sire is 3% CE. 3% BW, 95% WW. Dam is 80% CE, 75% BW, 15% WW.
Bull (steer) calf with bw of 119 pounds. (For sure, an outlier on bw.) Adjusted ww of 723 pounds. Sire is 65% CE, 75% BW, and 60% WW. Dam is same as the one above.

Bull calf with bw of 78#. Adjusted ww of 701#. Sire is 10% CE, 5% BW, 90% WW. Dam is 30% CE, 45% BW, 70% WW.

What is the point of all that data? There seems to be some correlation between BW epd's and actual bw. But there are some pretty good weaning weights from low bw calves. All these are from the same pasture and same management. No creep.

Years ago when I first heard the term "curve bender", I was not a believer. Seemed like just marketing talk to me. Low birth weights, but good growth. How could that be? I know that the continental breeds have made a lot of progress in reducing birth weights. But I think weaning weights have held up or even increased. Makes sense that if you select over the long term for both lower birth weight AND growth, that you will find these curve benders. I have become a believer in that curve bender concept. Looking at the sales catalog for a production sale with large numbers of cattle, you can find lots of those bulls with lower actual birth weights yet good actual growth. My point - if a bull has lots of calves with low bw and good growth, he or his sons might be ideal, especially for a smaller producer that uses the same bull for cows and heifers.

Keep in mind that the CE epd is expressed in % of unassisted births in first calf heifers. So, the difference between a CE of 8 and a CE of 14 is 6% more assisted births on first calf heifers. Difference between a -2 BW epd and a +4 bw epd is 6 pounds of birth weight (like 70# vs 76#). But that is on average. Individuals can vary a lot more.

 

[Hogfarmer10]

I'd agree with warren. You've raised them to be good replacement heifers. Find a different bull. I don't guess you'd have a neighbor who you could lease a bull from, do you?

 

[wbvs58]

I'd use their close relative. The main aim is to get a calf on the ground and chances are that you won't keep any heifers from them but I wouldn't discount that just judge all candidates on their merits. My understanding is that you are in the market for a new bull and this won't be an ongoing thing however it gives you breathing time to go on with your search for that bull without rushing things.
Travlr might be interested in buying the offspring. My understanding is he likes linebred heifers or even a bull maybe.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

I'd use their close relative.
Travlr might be interested in buying the offspring. My understanding is he likes linebred heifers or even a bull maybe.

Ken

Always in the market for heifers with an extra leg or crossed eyes...

 

[Travlr]

Or something that like to twin every year...

Lots of great homozygosity in this one.

 

[Ebenezer]

Does a higher birth weight bull mean a higher growth calf? Does a lower bw bull ensure a lower growth calf? Back in the good old days, that seemed to be the case.

Here are some examples from my cattle in recent years.

Bull calf with bw of 54 pounds. Adjusted ww of 785 pounds. Sire is 50 percentile for CE, 40% for bw, 20% for ww. Dam is 25% CE, 4% BW, 99% WW.
Heifer calf with bw of 67 pounds. Adjusted WW of 534 pounds. Sire is 95% CE, 45% BW, 60% WW. Same dam as above.

Heifer calf with bw of 75 pounds. Adjusted ww of 691 pounds. Sire is 3% CE. 3% BW, 95% WW. Dam is 80% CE, 75% BW, 15% WW.
Bull (steer) calf with bw of 119 pounds. (For sure, an outlier on bw.) Adjusted ww of 723 pounds. Sire is 65% CE, 75% BW, and 60% WW. Dam is same as the one above.

Bull calf with bw of 78#. Adjusted ww of 701#. Sire is 10% CE, 5% BW, 90% WW. Dam is 30% CE, 45% BW, 70% WW.

What is the point of all that data? There seems to be some correlation between BW epd's and actual bw. But there are some pretty good weaning weights from low bw calves. All these are from the same pasture and same management. No creep.

Years ago when I first heard the term "curve bender", I was not a believer. Seemed like just marketing talk to me. Low birth weights, but good growth. How could that be? I know that the continental breeds have made a lot of progress in reducing birth weights. But I think weaning weights have held up or even increased. Makes sense that if you select over the long term for both lower birth weight AND growth, that you will find these curve benders. I have become a believer in that curve bender concept. Looking at the sales catalog for a production sale with large numbers of cattle, you can find lots of those bulls with lower actual birth weights yet good actual growth. My point - if a bull has lots of calves with low bw and good growth, he or his sons might be ideal, especially for a smaller producer that uses the same bull for cows and heifers.

Keep in mind that the CE epd is expressed in % of unassisted births in first calf heifers. So, the difference between a CE of 8 and a CE of 14 is 6% more assisted births on first calf heifers. Difference between a -2 BW epd and a +4 bw epd is 6 pounds of birth weight (like 70# vs 76#). But that is on average. Individuals can vary a lot more.

Curve benders are what they are due to two genetic trends form that selection process: short gestation and longer growth curve. The short gestation controls BW. The longer growth curve tends to larger mature weights. You can't change them without changing them.

 

[Ky hills]

Thanks for the responses y'all I appreciate them.
If this was 25 years ago and our local AI rep and good friend was still living I'd be seriously thinking going that route.
AI hasn't worked for us since they all started doing the time AI. We've averaged at best 50% conception down to 0%. So I've gave up on AI, I know lots of folks swear by it and I used to, but it's not practical for us anymore.
We kind of back ourselves into a corner, in that we really like some things about this bull, he is the best natured gentleman of a bull I've ever had thus far.

@simme I've used curve benders for many years via AI and purchased daughters.
In years passed we sold bred heifers mostly purchased with a few home raised. We had to use calving ease bulls as part of the requirements. About any of the bulls we used through AI or walking bulls were main stream popular curve benders or sons of them. There is a difference in those bulls and bulls bred more for as a neighbor used to say power bulls.
We've used those kinds of curve benders for years and the results for us are just average or lower across the board. In another recent thread I said it's like they are promoted as do it all bulls but then a lot them don't do real well in some areas and better in others.
It has lead to a lot of frustration for me,
Several times I've thought well I'm going to have top notch calves this go around only for them to be too short and fleshy, or just too plain, or just disappointing as far as weight etc.
@Ebenezer just described what I've been so frustrated about to a t. I've had some great looking big registered cows out of some of the most popular heaviest used bulls at the time bred to those kind of bulls only to be disappointed at weaning in the calves, but then by long yearling they start to look so much better and make 1500-1800 pound cows but then wean off give or take 50 pounds average around 500.
That's why I started crossing with Herefords and now venturing into Simmental bulls. Hoping to get some benefit from crossbreeding and sone more weight an volume from more of a powerful type bull.

 

[gcreekrch]

Were me and 4 heifers I would either lease a neighbor's heifer bull or buy something by the lb at the sale and resell after a month. Make sure you fertility test or know he is good.