Charlois Angus Crossbreeding

[AmericanPlowBoy]

Anybody out there crossbreeding Angus cows to Charlois bulls? This is an idea a friend of mine and I have been thinking about. Have any of yall used Charlois bulls on a Heifer project? If so, what is a good CE value for Angus heifers? Appreciate any input, and thanks in advance!

 

[Travlr]

Anybody out there crossbreeding Angus cows to Charlois bulls? This is an idea a friend of mine and I have been thinking about. Have any of yall used Charlois bulls on a Heifer project? If so, what is a good CE value for Angus heifers? Appreciate any input, and thanks in advance!

If you'll go to your profile and scroll down to Account details, and put a state in as a location, you'll get more people interested. Lot's of talk here concerns weather, location related forage, location related bugs and parasites, and location related breed tolerances.

 

[Ky hills]

Lots of people use Charolais bulls over Angus cows. Real good cross.
Those Charolais sired calves grow good.
I am however of the mindset not to use Charolais bulls on Angus heifers or any British breed heifers. That same heterosis that gives those calves growth starts at conception. Even with calving ease bulls when you cross them it gives a bit of boost to calf growth even before they are born.
I am not a fan of crossing Continental breed bulls to British breed heifers.
I prefer to use Angus bulls for the first calf heifers and then after that a moderate bw Charolais bull should be fine.

 

[AmericanPlowBoy]

Lots of people use Charolais bulls over Angus cows. Real good cross.
Those Charolais sired calves grow good.
I am however of the mindset not to use Charolais bulls on Angus heifers or any British breed heifers. That same heterosis that gives those calves growth starts at conception. Even with calving ease bulls when you cross them it gives a bit of boost to calf growth even before they are born.
I am not a fan of crossing Continental breed bulls to British breed heifers.
I prefer to use Angus bulls for the first calf heifers and then after that a moderate bw Charolais bull should be fine.

Great, thanks! What kind of bw do you see on your crossbred calves out of a moderate bw charlois bull?

 

[Ky hills]

Great, thanks! What kind of bw do you see on your crossbred calves out of a moderate bw charlois bull?

I don’t currently have any Charolais cattle.
I used to have a small herd of registered Charolais around 30 years ago. Birth weights were a lot more back then than they are now. The Charolais breed has moderated a lot since those days.
I used to regularly have calves over 100# at birth with 120# being fairly common. My cows averaged between 1450-1800#
I am not aware of any calving issues from the bulls we sold to commercial breeders. All of the feedback I got back was that the bulls calved easy.
At that time EPD’s were in their infancy and especially so for Charolais.
We commonly considered a bull calf that was born under 100# to be a calving ease bull that could be used in heifers of the same breed.
The closest thing I can compare to is we used a Simmental bull that was definitely not a heifer bull a couple years ago and his calves from Angus and Hereford cows were probably around 80. Didn’t weigh any of them. They were bigger than Angus calves but nothing extreme and no calving issues at all.

 

[CSM]

I have seen it done with no problems. Use a proven bloodline on the bull side and the heifers are just as important. Heifers need some size and age and large pelvic areas. Could be a train wreck if you don’t do some homework.

 

[Logan52]

I don’t currently have any Charolais cattle.
I used to have a small herd of registered Charolais around 30 years ago. Birth weights were a lot more back then than they are now. The Charolais breed has moderated a lot since those days.
I used to regularly have calves over 100# at birth with 120# being fairly common. My cows averaged between 1450-1800#
I am not aware of any calving issues from the bulls we sold to commercial breeders. All of the feedback I got back was that the bulls calved easy.
At that time EPD’s were in their infancy and especially so for Charolais.
We commonly considered a bull calf that was born under 100# to be a calving ease bull that could be used in heifers of the same breed.
The closest thing I can compare to is we used a Simmental bull that was definitely not a heifer bull a couple years ago and his calves from Angus and Hereford cows were probably around 80. Didn’t weigh any of them. They were bigger than Angus calves but nothing extreme and no calving issues at all.

I live in the same general area as Ky hills and my experience with Charolais is very similar, only I go back a little farther and the early Charolais of the 1970s could be cow killers when bred to the pony type Angus that were common here at the time.
Yes, they have moderated a lot and a few years ago I bred about nine Red Poll heifers to an easy calving Charolais and had no calving problems at all. The buckskin calves produced were excellent and I still have three of them in my cow herd.
My biggest complaint is how hard it is to get rid of the white. I still get a white calf from the descendants of those buckskin cows even after breeding to black Sim-Angus bulls for two or three generations. The secret is never keep a white heifer as a replacement. I really do not mind an occasional white calf, so some of them still hang around.

 

[Dave]

My neighbor breeds hundreds of Angus cows to Charolais bulls every year. He doesn't do that with the heifers. Over the years he has used a number of different breeds of bulls on the heifers mostly so he can get more sleep at night with varying success. My thought is growing the heifers out good and doing pelvic measurement is every bit as important as the breed of bull used. He does not keep any Char heifers. They are strictly a terminal cross. He runs roughly 40 bulls. My observations would but the bulls at 25 Chars and 15 Angus. The replacement heifers are all from the Angus calves. I have sat at the sale when he sold calves and watched them top the market. So I know they work.

 

[Ky hills]

My neighbor breeds hundreds of Angus cows to Charolais bulls every year. He doesn't do that with the heifers. Over the years he has used a number of different breeds of bulls on the heifers mostly so he can get more sleep at night with varying success. My thought is growing the heifers out good and doing pelvic measurement is every bit as important as the breed of bull used. He does not keep any Char heifers. They are strictly a terminal cross. He runs roughly 40 bulls. My observations would but the bulls at 25 Chars and 15 Angus. The replacement heifers are all from the Angus calves. I have sat at the sale when he sold calves and watched them top the market. So I know they work.

Good Charolais cross calves will sell very close to good black calves here too.
For time probably 20-25 years ago there was more of a spread between them but that gap has been coming closer.
Even the tan or light reddish Charolais cross calves will sell pretty good now.
The white calves with pink noses though are down in Hereford territory price wise.
I agree heifers that are grown out enough and big enough in the pelvic area, should be expected to calve ok.
There are some genetic caveats though, that can throw a curve, and that’s why I’m a proponent of using CE Angus bulls on Heifers.
When I ran registered Charolais cattle, my heifers consistently had calves in the 90-110# range, with most being right around 100.

 

[Travlr]

I kinda makes me sick that we are talking about breeds due to the colors they throw instead of what kind of quality they produce. It's just wrong...

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Be careful with EPDs. It seems you are knowledgeable on them, but also know/remember that numerical values for one breed do not necessarily mean the same thing for another breed. I'm an advocate of hybrid vigor so I like your cross. Hybrid vigor 'maxes out' with a 3 way cross rather than just a 2 way. @Logan52 mentioned that he uses a Sim-Angus bull on his. I like that thought. Check with @Jeanne - Simme Valley for her Simmitals. She produces breed and show stock. She could be a good source for you.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I kinda makes me sick that we are talking about breeds due to the colors they throw instead of what kind of quality they produce. It's just wrong...

I don't disagree with you about focusing on color. I think it is silly. The problem is that color is being used to determine payment, which payment tends to be the bottom line. My preference, like you, is that quality be used to determine the bottom line. Do realize though that there is a whole host of qualities that any producer can select for, and I'll pretty much guarantee that no 2 producers are ever going to see things the same way.

It's snowing right now, so here is an analogy. Producers are like snowflakes, every one is different. At the same time, all snowflakes can be and are very much the same or have the same characteristics. "Snowflake" -the term- can have a very derogatory connotation to it. I hate that so many terms have been given new and often negative meanings since I was a kid. I am not using the term "snowflake" here with this meaning for it at all, nowhere near anything close to it. I have a lot of respect for producers as I myself do not think I could be a producer. I might be too much of a "snowflake". Yup, I'm pointing fingers at myself.

 

[AmericanPlowBoy]

I kinda makes me sick that we are talking about breeds due to the colors they throw instead of what kind of quality they produce. It's just wrong...

Yup, the Angus association has done an incredible job advertising and promoting the breed. Leads me to believe there must be big money behind them. It's incredible the price tag that goes with a black hide regardless the performance of the cattle. That said, I think smoky feeders might be catching on around here.

 

[kenny thomas]

Lots of talk about Black and profit but is it possible that the 3 way cross might actually be more profitable because of more pounds. If its black thats ok but the Charolais cross calves I buy consistently outgrow the solid blacks. If I can add pounds and take a couple cents less or maybe the same price I have a better profit.

 

[mwj]

Good calves bring good money. The best calves bring the most money. Black color may or may not bring a couple of cents more.

There is no free money when it comes to profit. Profit pays the bills and looks stokes the ego.

Also look at what those good and best calves are.There is a lot of money lost raising cattle that you ''think'' the market wants. Set and watch some sales and note what catches the buyers attention. Time well spent.

 

[regolith]

Good calves bring good money. The best calves bring the most money. Black color may or may not bring a couple of cents more.

There is no free money when it comes to profit. Profit pays the bills and looks stokes the ego.

Also look at what those good and best calves are.There is a lot of money lost raising cattle that you ''think'' the market wants. Set and watch some sales and note what catches the buyers attention. Time well spent.

Or you try the saleyards a time or two and decide that selling directly on the hook is the only way to get a fair go...
What I've seen. Isn't a cent or two. If the calf is the wrong colour you can pick up baby calf price on a fully weaned and vaccinated calf. The calf can be the *right* colour and sired by a Jersey bull and top the market that day, but that feels dishonest as heck even knowing that the middle-man did it & you supplied him three generation of ancestry on that calf.
It would only take necessity for me to start selling live cattle off the farm again, after all I've seen from doing that previously. More than once the statement returned didn't match the calves sent which presumably explains that time when the best calf of the group got the lowest price... he'd turned into a different breed when the paperwork came back.

 

[kenny thomas]

Im not sure how sales are done there but I stress for the owner to be there when their calves or even cull cows sell. You spend a year getting the calf ready to sell so its best to finish the job.

 

[mwj]

Im not sure how sales are done there but I stress for the owner to be there when their calves or even cull cows sell. You spend a year getting the calf ready to sell so its best to finish the job.

If everybody followed your advice your profits would be way down. As has been explained experience is not easy to come by. I sometimes think people get ''barn blind'' and do not realize what there cattle look like to other people. If there is only 1 buyer for your type of cattle it will cost you dearly.

 

[kenny thomas]

If everybody followed your advice your profits would be way down. As has been explained experience is not easy to come by. I sometimes think people get ''barn blind'' and do not realize what there cattle look like to other people. If there is only 1 buyer for your type of cattle it will cost you dearly.

It's hard to tell the person owning the calf that its too short, to tall, to fat. But yes a huge difference in what sells.
I buy the skinny rough calves. I will have a dozen or so ready to sell in another 10 days. I will try to remember to post a picture of them after being here 50 to 60 days. Not all perfect but sure lots better than when I bought them.
Some of them cost 2.50 and will bring 3.75 now and 100lb heavier. Some cost 3.00 and will bring 4.50. That makes decent profit in 60 days.

 

[angus9259]

I kinda makes me sick that we are talking about breeds due to the colors they throw instead of what kind of quality they produce. It's just wrong...

Color (along with ear, horns, double muscling, etc...) tells a buyer something of what to expect - unless we are professing all breeds finish the same. To suggest a char and angus will finish the same (size, quantity, marbling, ease to finish etc...) also seems silly. At a sale barn, often all they have to go by is color.

I used to sell all my calves every year to the same penny pinching finisher / butcher. He said he'd give me a dime more per lb to turn them black (back when a dime mattered ). Said the hide weight reduction alone would pay him back. He wasn't a guy who just gave his money away because he liked a color. He was measuring every hide when it came off. He was measuring every cup of grain they took. He was measuring what became burger and what become ribeyes. That dime he gave me was not based on "color" even though that's the language he used.