Charging System on White Tractor - Diagram attached

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frank

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Hello everyone. I have a White tractor with Fiat motor and electronics. It has a two connection voltage regulator and I don't really understand how it all works. I need to start, because the mechanic bills are killing me.

I found a 1976 Fiat Spider wiring diagram that seems to represent the system very well (even the terminal numbers are the same). I eliminated all the car stuff, with the exception of a couple of items.

A couple of questions, if someone would be so kind:

1) In addition to the battery cable, there are three wires going to this starter. The relay to the key is obvious, but what do the other two do?

2) The Green wire, the Field connects to the fuse box, but so does one of the battery wires. Why would that be?

3) Most importantly, what does the Y/R wire (White connection on the alternator) do and where should it go?

Overall, can this be simplified further?

The Modified Wiring Diagram:
1976_3_1_.jpg


The Alternator:
ALTERNATOR2.JPG


Thanks to anyone that can help. I don't want to go through another hay season having to pull start the tractor every day.

The original diagrams that I built mine from are here:
http://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/Fiat spider 76 Wiring Diagrams/1976_2.jpg
http://www.mirafiori.com/faq/content/Fiat spider 76 Wiring Diagrams/1976_3.jpg

Best regards,

Frank Dwyer
 

Kingfisher

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So your complaint is? How long does the tractor sit before the batteries are dead? Does it have a volt meter? Do you have a meter? Do you have a test light?
 
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frank

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Well that is impressive. You replied before I could even get the post working. Thank you, Kingfisher.

The starter and alternator have both been off and been returned after being rebuilt. A backyard mechanic has since been in there trying to put things together. Then there is me trying to fix it.... I am not confident anything is wired correctly at this point.

Also, the old White fuse block is rusted out (where the field is connected). I am thinking about replacing it. I am looking at rewiring in the simplest way possible but don't understand the basics the way I should. i.e. what is the white shielded terminal on the alternator and where should it go on a simple set up?

I have multi meters, lights, and all that is required to test. We are getting nothing at this time, but once we understand the basic set up, I can probably trouble shoot any problems myself with the voltmeter.

Thanks again.

F./
 

lavacarancher

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frank":txd539v7 said:
Well that is impressive. You replied before I could even get the post working. Thank you, Kingfisher.

The starter and alternator have both been off and been returned after being rebuilt. A backyard mechanic has since been in there trying to put things together. Then there is me trying to fix it.... I am not confident anything is wired correctly at this point.

Also, the old White fuse block is rusted out (where the field is connected). I am thinking about replacing it. I am looking at rewiring in the simplest way possible but don't understand the basics the way I should. i.e. what is the white shielded terminal on the alternator and where should it go on a simple set up?

I have multi meters, lights, and all that is required to test. We are getting nothing at this time, but once we understand the basic set up, I can probably trouble shoot any problems myself with the voltmeter.

Thanks again.

F./

Frank, the white insulated terminal is more than likely the connection to the regulator since the schematic shows a connection to the field winding of the alternator. And the terminal with the nut on it will go to a battery connection, usually on the starter solenoid. The schematic shows a connection to what I'm going to guess is an idiot light which your tractor probably won't have. Connect the field and the battery and if everything else is wired correctly on the tractor it will charge the battery.
 

agmantoo

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You may not like my suggestion but here goes.
Trash the existing alternator
Buy a cheap Delco 10SI alternator as a replacement
Use this wiring diagram for the Delco alternator
http://www.kansasselectproducts.com/alt ... ctions.JPG
In the place where the yellow wire is used to the ignition switch make a modification as follows
get an oil sending unit that makes contact of two terminals when pressure builds. Put a wire from the battery to one of the terminals and run the other terminal to where the yellow wire is connected to the alternator in the above diagram . This modification will isolate the battery from the alternator when the engine is not running and will provide excitation voltage to the alternator once the engine is running. There should be no drain on the battery using this modification. Do not get a one wire alternator as this setup has a continuous drain. It is OK for a frequently used tractor but it will discharge the battery for an infrequently used machine. Wiring the starter is very simple and straight forward and typically is standard on most machines.
 
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frank

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Thank you, agmantoo. That is an interesting suggestion and it is going into my files for future consideration. I have a problem with drain on infrequently used tractor batteries and find that I am killing them way more often than I should. I guess you would have to have a secondary place to put another oil sending unit. I wouldn't even need a key!

SInce I paid to rebuild this old alternator, I am determined to make it work, if I can.

F./
 
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frank

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Lavacarancher,

Thanks for the response. I had replied last night, but it doesn't seem to have made it. It is definite that the green wire that goes from terminal 67 on the alternator to terminal 67 on the regulator. These numbers appear on the schematic and are stamped into each piece of hardware too. Would that mean that the white insulated terminal was for an idiot light?

Thanks,

Frank
 
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frank

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Thanks, agmantoo.

That looks similar, eh. I don't understand how it works, but if my alternator is the same (and that white connection is not an idiot light as discussed above), I would simply take the yellow and red wire as per below and attach it to the other side of the regulator?

This is how my tractor would be wired:

White_1470.jpg


Higher detailed version: http://ranchers.net/photopost/showfull.php?photo=11058

Thanks..

Frank
 

agmantoo

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Here is the best interpretation I can make from the schematics.


1) In addition to the battery cable, there are three wires going to this starter. The relay to the key is obvious, but what do the other two do?
R is to the solenoid coil
Br is to provide 12 volts to feed the ignition switch
B is for receiving the output from the alternator to charge the battery

2) The Green wire, the Field connects to the fuse box, but so does one of the battery wires. Why would that be?
The green wire is possibly a Zener diode that is regulating the voltage to the fuse box.
3) Most importantly, what does the Y/R wire (White connection on the alternator) do and where should it go?
Y/R is controlling when the alternator is charging by controlling the coil in the charge relay, the points close and charging occurs

You also have a B from the alternator to the ignition switch. I think this is to provide excitation voltage from the ignition switch to the alternator to initiate the charging by the alternator.
 

lavacarancher

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OK, Sir. Lets try this one more time.

The white insulated terminal on the alternator goes to the regulator. This is the green wire in your schematic. This provides field current to excite the alternator windings. Won't work without a field connection.

The big terminal on the alternator, the one with the nut on it, goes to the battery but connects to the battery at the starter solenoid as shown in the schematic. Electrically the same point. You can also connect a wire to that post that will become your ignition and power through the switch to all of the other electrical equipment. You could make that connection at the starter solenoid. Again, electrically, it's the same point as connecting it to the alternator.

Does this help any at all?
 
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frank

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It helps a lot, thank you.

And thankyou too, agmantoo.

I am printing all this out and taking it to the farm on the weekend. Wish me luck!

Frank
 
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frank

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I just took it out as I didn't think the tractor had such a thing. I thought the charging would occur solely from the black wire from the alternator terminal with the nut being connected to the starter (and battery).

F./
 

Kingfisher

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. I have a problem with drain on infrequently used tractor batteries and find that I am killing them way more often than I should. How many tractors do you have? How do you know you have a " drain?" You might want to consider some sort of maintainer for your batteries.

SInce I paid to rebuild this old alternator, I am determined to make it work, if I can. Your sure it works? You have seen it benched tested and full fielded?

F./[/quote]
 
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frank

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Pretty bad when you have to think about it - We have 5 running tractors, several for parts... There are a few that we are putting batteries in every other year or maybe more often than that. This White 1470 is one of them.... I don't know what a maintainer is.

I am not entirely sure this alternator works, but I intend to verify wiring and give it a check. If it doesn't, I am going to do as agmantoo suggested and get a simpler set up. Not sure about the oil pressure switch, but the simplicity of that other alternator with an internal regulator is something I like...

I think I am going to set up my own bench testing station and am committing to learn about this stuff myself as we are just paying too much for questionable work... I am convinced that these "rebuilds" are just new brushes and cleanup, most of the time...

F./
 

Kingfisher

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Hi Frank. Where are you located? Yea brushes and a cleanup doesn't cut it most of the time. A "maintainer" is a battery charge maintainer.
 
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frank

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The farm is in Marmora, Ontario, Canada. This link shows some of the 290 acres we have there:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sour...1713,-77.666903&spn=0.012772,0.01929&t=h&z=16

I support the farm by working out of Prescott, Ontario, just across from Ogdensburg, NY.

..just looked what a maintainer is. I have a two or three battery chargers, but not a maintainer. I should look into it for this fall.

I have been a member here in the past, but lost access to my email and when I forgot my password, I had to open a new account.
This is a great site with very helpful people.

Frank.
 

Kingfisher

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frank said:
The farm is in Marmora, Ontario, Canada. This link shows some of the 290 acres we have there:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sour...1713,-77.666903&spn=0.012772,0.01929&t=h&z=16

I support the farm by working out of Prescott, Ontario, just across from Ogdensburg, NY.

..just looked what a maintainer is. I have a two or three battery chargers, but not a maintainer. I should look into it for this fall.

Cool. Thanks for the link. What I was getting to concerning your " dead battery" complaint is some folks can rebuild those Italian altenators and some can't because of parts availability. I have a shop here in town that I can trust most of the time with regards to that sort of work. They help me with oddball foreign car stuff but they have a lot of experience with commercial industrial starter and altenator repairs. I'm sure there is someone competent in that neck of the woods but maybe not local. Most auto parts store have alt/starter bench testers. I wouldnt go thru the hassle of building a test bed if i can use one from time to time. Just saying. What brand of batteries are you using? Some take more maintenance" than others and there sure is some junk for sale out there right now when it comes to car parts anyway.
 
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frank

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We lost power for 5 days up this way, so I couldn't get at the tractor as was planned... Trucking water to the cows and keeping generators running...

We are using CarQuest's batteries, most of the time. I might have to make a new mount, but when this one dies, I am going to Delco as per above. The problem for me is that it is a one hour drive to drop these things off and when it doesn't work out and you have to back and forth, it gets to be a bit much. With gas the price it is and time at a premium, I am going to have to get my head around doing these myself, sooner or later.

Frank
 

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