Cattle then and now

[Tod Dague]

Probably like a Low Line. With Low Line you can sill get this kind of cattle if any of you are serious about the 1919 bull. I personally like the FS 5-6 cattle how ever I do have a 4 frame and a 7 frame in my herd because they are good cows that make good calves and work in my area.

The 1919 model is definitely not a Low Line.

What is the difference a Low Line is just a short Angus.

 

[dun]

Probably like a Low Line. With Low Line you can sill get this kind of cattle if any of you are serious about the 1919 bull. I personally like the FS 5-6 cattle how ever I do have a 4 frame and a 7 frame in my herd because they are good cows that make good calves and work in my area.

The 1919 model is definitely not a Low Line.

What is the difference a Low Line is just a short Angus.

I would claiffify a less then FS 1 as being sligthly more (less) then just a short Angus.

dun

 

[Tod Dague]

Probably like a Low Line. With Low Line you can sill get this kind of cattle if any of you are serious about the 1919 bull. I personally like the FS 5-6 cattle how ever I do have a 4 frame and a 7 frame in my herd because they are good cows that make good calves and work in my area.

The 1919 model is definitely not a Low Line.

What is the difference a Low Line is just a short Angus.

I would claiffify a less then FS 1 as being sligthly more (less) then just a short Angus.

dun

Sorry, but I find it aggravating that everyone is just swinging from one extreme to another. From what I can tell those cattle are not moderate but small. They may be bigger than a FS 1 but I doubt any of them were a FS of 4. If you breed your cattle that you have today to a Low Line you will end up with the 1919 model.

 

[dun]

Sorry, but I find it aggravating that everyone is just swinging from one extreme to another. From what I can tell those cattle are not moderate but small. They may be bigger than a FS 1 but I doubt any of them were a FS of 4. If you breed your cattle that you have today to a Low Line you will end up with the 1919 model.

I'm with you on the size thing. Lowline specs state maximum of 110 cm preferably 100 cm. By my conversion that's only 43 inches. They had to have done something besides knock the legs off to make them that small. We have cows that have bodys that are bigger then that

dun

 

[sillco]

I just saw a picture of the MO State Fair FFA champion Angus bull. From what I could tell he was a short legged squarry little thing but with a tremendous amout of depth, length and width on him. Next to that picture was a current bull. Didn't show the thickness or depth and had a lot more leg. That's the history, now the question.
Does any one have records or data showing what kind of weights those squatty little cattle (my preferred type) had in comparison to todays cattle?

dun

Dun:
Have you checked out the Pharo Cattle Company program. Kit Pharo is located in eastern Colorado. He has short cattle about 4 to 5 frame score. They weight the same as taller cattle but are more efficent.
They are having a sale on Nov. 6th in Burlington CO. Check them out at http://www.pharocattle.com

 

[la4angus]

Comments on the 1919 Bull from someone that was around in those days and is still breeding Angus cattle. He was but a kid then, but knows the history of Angus as well as anyone living today.

The bull is Idolmere 199904 Champion bull 1919 at Chicago International. Photo is in History of Angus by Alvin Sanders between pages 728 & 729. Without AI this bull left some important cattle and I doubt that many of these bulls in use today will ever leave greatness unless it is in the problems they leave behind but of course the numbers will be there. It is to bad that the American people are such extremists that a good tool has been made into nothing but a merchandising thing.

 

[dun]

Dun:
Have you checked out the Pharo Cattle Company program. Kit Pharo is located in eastern Colorado. He has short cattle about 4 to 5 frame score. They weight the same as taller cattle but are more efficent.
They are having a sale on Nov. 6th in Burlington CO. Check them out at http://www.pharocattle.com

According to the FS standard a FS 4 would be 43.2 at 8 months, as a yearling it would be 47 inches.

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ansci/beef/as1091w.htm

dun

 

[ollie]

In my pocket I carry a note book . In the front of the book I have a quote I heard wrote down. " Every virtue contains within itself the seeds of it's own distruction." This coupled with the idea that for every action there is an equal and oposite reaction created compact cattle of 1950 and the equally useless cattle of the 1980's. The only question is what "virtue" are we chasing now?

 

[la4angus]

" Every virtue contains within itself the seeds of it's own distruction." This coupled with the idea that for every action there is an equal and oppisite reaction created compact cattle of 1950 and the equally useless cattle of the 1980's. The only question is what "virtue" are we chasing now?

Hard doing cattle with high carcass qualities.
College professors and some purebred promotors are set on destroying the industry.

 

[ollie]

" Every virtue contains within itself the seeds of it's own distruction." This coupled with the idea that for every action there is an equal and oppisite reaction created compact cattle of 1950 and the equally useless cattle of the 1980's. The only question is what "virtue" are we chasing now?

Hard doing cattle with high carcass qualities.
College professors and some purebred promotors are set on destroying the industry.

Really LA the only carcass qualities they all seem set on improving are the ones related to marbeling. Leaving Ribeye size ,shape, tenderness, and back fat behind with the rest of the calf.

 

[dun]

the only carcass qualities they all seem set on improving are the ones related to marbeling. Leaving Ribeye size ,shape, tenderness, and back fat behind with the rest of the calf.

I suppose that's possible, but the individual breeders no matter if commercial, registered or seed stock have the option of doing that or being smart and doing what the majority are doing and trying to breed balanced carcass cattle. Carcass and fertility/maternal traits are generally antagonistic, but there are those bulls, (I'm sure in most every breed) that can provide both sides of the equation.
Just because there are educated(?) folks that are blind to where we have been and where we should be going doesn't mean that us common folk need to be gnus and chase the herd.

dun

 

[ollie]

the only carcass qualities they all seem set on improving are the ones related to marbeling. Leaving Ribeye size ,shape, tenderness, and back fat behind with the rest of the calf.

commercial, registered or seed stock have the option of doing that or being smart and doing what the majority are doing and trying to breed balanced carcass cattle
dun

I do not believe that is what the majority of breeders are doing. I believe the majority of commercial breeders are , as they always have been, searching for that extra dollar. The most cost effective way of doing that has been breeding black. Black and nothing more.As a matter of fact I also believe that the main focus of purebred breeders has been similiar but different. They have been turning anything black that grazes grass but they have also been distracted by things that don't improve carcass such as polled heads. They have also been distracted with building epd's that are more desireable than the neighbors.While I would like to agree with you that the majority of us are smarter than our grandads I don't really think we have learned our lesson.

 

[sillco]

the only carcass qualities they all seem set on improving are the ones related to marbeling. Leaving Ribeye size ,shape, tenderness, and back fat behind with the rest of the calf.

commercial, registered or seed stock have the option of doing that or being smart and doing what the majority are doing and trying to breed balanced carcass cattle
dun

I do not believe that is what the majority of breeders are doing. I believe the majority of commercial breeders are , as they always have been, searching for that extra dollar. The most cost effective way of doing that has been breeding black. Black and nothing more.As a matter of fact I also believe that the main focus of purebred breeders has been similiar but different. They have been turning anything black that grazes grass but they have also been distracted by things that don't improve carcass such as polled heads. They have also been distracted with building epd's that are more desireable than the neighbors.While I would like to agree with you that the majority of us are smarter than our grandads I don't really think we have learned our lesson.

Polled headed bulls are a cost saver and a problem saver. Try them, you will agree.

 

[ollie]

I run polled bulls. What is your point.

 

[hillbilly]

the only carcass qualities they all seem set on improving are the ones related to marbeling. Leaving Ribeye size ,shape, tenderness, and back fat behind with the rest of the calf.

commercial, registered or seed stock have the option of doing that or being smart and doing what the majority are doing and trying to breed balanced carcass cattle
dun

I do not believe that is what the majority of breeders are doing. I believe the majority of commercial breeders are , as they always have been, searching for that extra dollar. The most cost effective way of doing that has been breeding black. Black and nothing more.As a matter of fact I also believe that the main focus of purebred breeders has been similiar but different. They have been turning anything black that grazes grass but they have also been distracted by things that don't improve carcass such as polled heads. They have also been distracted with building epd's that are more desireable than the neighbors.While I would like to agree with you that the majority of us are smarter than our grandads I don't really think we have learned our lesson.

Ollie

I can only speak for commercial breeders in my area, but, we don't breed
straight Angus.
Most of us are on a two or three breed rotation, with at least one continental breed.
None of us ultasound or choose bulls based on the "new" EPD's.
We are trying to produce feeders that look british but grow better.

That said we are producing beef that marbles better than the the beef we raised in the 80's
Then we had 2 or more continental bulls in the rotation. The calves were bigger but the beef was too lean.

We almost put ourselves out of business by producing beef that was tough
and not very taisty.
Today you can buy steaks at the grocery store that taist great.
Yes, Atkins has been a great influnance but our product just taists better today than it did in '85.

Hillbilly

 

[ollie]

You miss read my post Hillbilly if you thought I was being critical of english or angus cattle. It had nothing to do with that.

 

[hillbilly]

You miss read my post Hillbilly if you thought I was being critical of english or angus cattle. It had nothing to do with that.

My fault, when you said marbeling, black & polled I jumped to a conclusion.

Hillbilly

 

[mtnman]

How do we know if the Pharo cattle are more efficient?


mtnman

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Whether you have confidence in epds or not, the Hereford folks are putting a lot of emphasis on Ribeye area epds right now, so there are some who are not ignoring them. I can think of one bull immediately who combines breed-leading REA and marbling with high accuracies, and for that matter, has reasonable actual and EPD BW, slightly above breed average growth, so I do believe that there are bulls that can combine antagonistic traits in a doable package. MW LLL Farley 24F.