Cape Buffalo

[tapeworm]

I bet those half bramers would be a little tough to handle arent they Burro?? Even with those halfbloods dont you get too mcuh ear on there calves unless they stay in the south?? To each there own but blacks have sure been good to me

 

[Caustic Burno]

I bet those half bramers would be a little tough to handle arent they Burro?? Even with those halfbloods dont you get too mcuh ear on there calves unless they stay in the south?? To each there own but blacks have sure been good to me

Yeah they can be difficult,but they raise a heck of a calf.
Only requirement is a good Hereford or Angus Bull. Real hard to beat quality red or black baldie calfs at the sale barn. I like the Brangus on them but it puts a lot of ear on em .

 

[Frankie]

I am surprised you do not know what a certified F-1 is.
Thanks for proving my point that Angus breeders are blinded by black.

http://www.port-city.com/SS.ABBA.NewsRelease.pdf

I know what an F-1 is; both in cattle and beans. You didn't say an F1, you said "Certified Herf/Bramer..." With all your wide ranging knowledge, I thought maybe you could teach me something. Guess not in this case.

Apparently you didn't as any one that knows beans or cattle knows a F-1 is a cross between any 2 breeds.
Certified F-1's are Hereford/Bramer crosses .

:lol: No. No. No. You said (and I'll post a link if necessary) "From a cowmans view I will pick a Certified Herf/Bramer or Brangus as the best cattle. They return the most profit with the least income input."

There's no mention there of the term F1. I know what an F1 is; you didn't say F1. When I questioned you on it, you threw in the F1 claim. BTW, here's part of a report on the Uniontown, AL sale. You can see how they discount Brahman cattle. You'd better have a low cost operation to make up for the discount these cattle take. The Decatur, AL sale report shows a similiar discount on Brahman cattle.

"Uniontown AL –
Feeder Steers Medium and Large
Wt Rng Avg Wt Price Range Avg Price
450-500 480 131.00-136.00 133.22 - avg
450-500 460 121.00-124.00 122.48 – avg Brahman Cross"

I know they discount Brahman cattle at our local sale barn; but never saw a sale report with it broken out like this. Interesting.

 

[MikeC]

Frankie - Most guys who deal in the brahma and/or cross cattle feel they make up for the price difference with vigor and lack of calf deaths. The cows will eat the bark off trees if they have to and it's hard to kill a brahma calf with a shotgun. ;-) If you don't tag one of those calves in 5 minutes after he's born..........forget it.
Overall- they claim less maintenance on the cows and calves puts them money in the bank. And bluntly, most cow/calf guys down here are hitting the commodity beef market anyway. Until you've summered cows in the high heat and humidity in the extreme south it is hard to understand, I'm sure.
But they have their place.........and they are in it. South. If I weren't in the reg. char business I would be puttin char bulls on tigerstripes or brangus.

 

[Arnold Ziffle]

Maybe somebody needs to go across the big pond and bring back a few thousand real good beefies (or look hard for them here). Hint -- they come in red, white and red/white roan.

 

[Frankie]

now i will ask you 2 questions black angus calves never fetched a premium it was the black baldies that used to bring up to 5 cents a pound premium, when can you say angus calves ever brought the premium? 2nd who says that the angus made the black baldies bring the premium i tend to think and beleive it was the herford influence that made the black baldies bring the premium.

ROTFLMAO! I've sat in sale facilities this year watching auctioneers offer to cut out the black baldies because they were hurting the price of the solid black calves! You can "tend to think" whatever you want. But when you get a chance to actually set in the seats at a sale barn, I think you'll find good black cattle outsell other good cattle and sorry black cattle outsell other sorry cattle.

i mentioned the cab program and web site i challange you to go to it with an open mind and look at the stats they are the ones that say what they are marketing is assumed to be of angus influence not i .

You mentioned the CAB program because you want to bash Angus. You don't come out here and offer facts and links to research, you just come out and bash Angus and CAB. I find that unacceptable.

i wish i could find someone who has an angus herd that has never been crossed with the holsteins to get milk in the breed or chiania to get size or any of the other breeds that are truly in their genes. i would buy one and have it slaughtered just to prove that they are inferior by their self. and that it is really the terminal crosses of other breeds that have brought them out of dwarfism .

Well, if I had something to sell we could work a deal because my Angus cattle haven't been crossed with anything. Again, you just want to bash Angus, without offering any proof or alternative.

lastly their are numerous breeds that are out there that grade better than angus all you have to do is do your research.

Manure. You're making the claim; you provide the proof.

now back to the water buffalos they have one thing in common with the angus while most other breeds are grazing you can find the angus in the waterhole pond or creek and thats a fact all one has to do is start driving and you will see 10 angus in the water compared to any other breed.

See. More Angus bashing. Do you think anyone will take your posts seriously? Every bovine eats until their first stomach is full; then ruminates until they pass that feed into the second stomach. Then they graze again. It doesn't matter a hill of beans whether they're standing the pond, laying under a tree or in the sun. What matters is that they maintain their body condition so they are able to breed back and raise a calf every year. When it's a hundred degrees around here, yes, some of my Angus go in the water. So, also, do cattle of several other colors. We had one Angus cow that it didn't matter if it was 60 degrees or 90 degrees, first thing every morning after her calf was taken care of, she went into the water for her morning swim. She's gone now, but I see her daughter has the same tendency.

i personally think the angus stats are just a lot of fleece he said she said stuff that has been pulled over the eyes of the industry because when one asks for independant studies that question is never answered and i do have an open mind as i would welcome the opportunity to read unbiased facts and studies.

You don't want to read facts and studies. You want to bash Angus. Do you honestly think that well over half the beef producers in the US are using Angus bulls because the wool has been pulled over their eyes? It's amazing to me how some people can fool themselves. If you really wanted to read facts and studies, you'd get on the internet and do some research. There are plenty of articles in beef publications and on university websites showing Angus cattle will work. The latest MARC data shows that Angus cattle do very well when compared to the Continental cattle and outperform the other British breeds.

and for the record the consumer first wants safe beef knowing where it came from then leaner and more tender beef

References here? Of course not. Silly me. I say the consumer wants tender marbled beef, like CAB. They vote with their pocketbook and, overall, marbled beef sells for more money than lean beef. Consumers pay more for higher quality beef, packers pay more for higher quality beef, feedlots pay producers more $$ for cattle that they expect to marble.

oh one more bit of info last may or june there was an article on the cattle today home page that dealt with all the black hide hype and it said that the packers had come to realize that there was to much waste and inferior grades coming from the black hide-ded carcasses

Gee. You actually read an article. I am impressed! Backfat is the last fat put on by an animal in the feedlot. In general, Angus cattle marble at an earlier age than other breeds. When they're fed alongside other breeds, they may get too fat. Good feedlot management and feeding them separate from other breeds will help with yield grades. CAB licensed feedlots are working on that problem. There are Angus bulls available that have positive marbling EPDs and negative backfat EPDs. We need to be using more of them in the Angus business.

 

[jscunn]

Well said Frankie. You will never change his mind. Burno is the same way but I have alot of respect for him he brings a different point of view to the board without being too harsh with his comments. Bramers have a place in this country unlike some other hooby breeds (Belted Galloway).
Unlike this guy I have a family and a job and I dont have time to look research to dispute someone who is being childish.
One thing Guest25 don't call an innocent man a liar just because he is not here to defend himself (my county agent). He has graded for us for years and given us some grades we did not like (YG4, select,etc). Good luck with your piedmontese cattle. I truly hope you succeed.

 

[Frankie]

why in the world would anyone be jealous of a bunch of underacheiving cattle like the angus i think if you research this board there is more breed bashing done by the alledged angus gurus than by anyone.

Some are jealous because Angus cattle outsell any other breed in most sales across the country. I haven't seen any Angus breeders bashing. I see several defending the breed against your bashing.

oh so your county agent could not meat the grade at usda so now he grades dirt huh and by the way i bet he used all of the angus influenced grading criteria to grade that freezer beef.

LOL! When you run out of facts (not that you ever had any), insult someone. That's typical for a breed basher when he gets faced with the truth.

i bet you did not even know that the grading system standards used to grade those black beauties was influenced by cab and the angus association did you . i find it kind of funny that a grading system set up through the usda and all those angus people. that of 9million head alledged to be of angus influence a mere 1.7 million head met the cab criteria and if the truth is known the ones that graded choice were probably black holstein . you see all of those black hides that are put in the cab program are fattened at 39 cab approved feed lots. now remember the above paragraph was from the cab web site other than the pun about the holsteins.

:lol: :lol: Your ignorance knows no bounds. When Continental cattle came into the US they basically took over the beef industry. Producers were selling pounds of beef and packers loved to get more pounds from one animal. But the amount of Choice beef dropped because Continental cattle didn't marble as well as British cattle. So the packers and Continental breeders encouraged the USDA to lower the grading standards. The Angus Association objected, but they changed the standards anyway, and that's when CAB was born. The Angus Association believed consumers would pay for quality beef. There are a lot of black cattle that don't meet CAB specs. What's the big deal? We can't move forward if we don't know where we are. And you're wrong again: beef from practically any feedlot can be certified as CAB.

its a sad state of affairs that the angus have a stacked deck of grading criteria and can not win on their own turf . now talk about cry babies i previously stated its my opinion there is more breed bashing done by the angus cheerleaders than anyone else

No, it's a sad state of affairs when someone as uninformed as you comes on a cattle board and makes a fool of himself just because he is jealous of the success of a particular breed. It tells us something about your character. Surely you aren't already second guessing your large investment in the Piedmontese breed?

i beleive the angus train is running out of steam according to the article i mentioned last may or june on the cattle todays home page about the great black hided myth that started in wooster ohio is fading into the sunset just like the buffalo did.

You can believe all you want, but CAB is still the top selling branded beef program in the world. Sales have been hurt by the closing of the Japanese market, but, hopefully, that will open up this year and it will really take off again. Obviously you don't pay much attention to buffalo. They've made a comeback the last decade. Ted Turner has a chain of burger joints selling his buffalo burgers. He owns thousands of them, as do many other people.

so please show me some data about the angus that will make a beleiver out of me and the other participants on this board and if you do you might save your breed and they won't have to sell all of that burger at hardees and burger king. its a sad day when whats alledged to be the best breed in the world has to be marketed at the fast food joint.

I'll not waste my time trying to convince you of anything. Everyone should do their own research and make their own decisions. As you can tell when you drive down the roads, most have chosen Angus. Every animal of any breed produces some hamburger. That's a fact of life. You are embarrasing in your lack of knowledge.

i will throw this in just for the heck of it why dont you ask your county agent slash usda grader if he graded those 5 freezer beef honestly or just didn't want to bust your angus bubble!

If he's selling this beef to customers based on this guy's grading, there can be financial and legal problems if the grader lied. You know, like Montana Range Beef had financial and legal problems?

beleiving in the undocumented hype about the angus cattle is like beleving in santa clause people lied to their kids about santa so why not paint an illusion about the black hollier than other breeds those perfect angus.

:lol: Except for the minor fact that there is probably more documentation on Angus performance (good and bad) than any other breed out there. Your vicious hatred of the breed undercuts any point you might have been trying to make.

oh and if you dont show me the door please address my previous statement about the angus having genetics from holstein and chiania and the other breeds because if you doubt that then you must still beleive in santa clause.

You're making the claim; you show the proof that Angus have Chi and holstein influence. Every cow on my place the daughter, granddaughter and great granddaughter of a bull that has been blood tested or dna tested.

i think you mentioned premiums for your angus cattle please elaborate and notice i have used the word please twice opps three times now.

All you have to do is go to your local sale barn and watch cattle sell. That's the bottom line.

 

[CowCop]

Yes you are right, after I checked the american water buffalo site and saw that he was the president and I emailed him. They are in fact his herd. I told him the exact location, on the corner of Hwy 241 and 335 in Archer Fl. near Williston and Gainesville. He said that they have 800 head on 3 farms. I ve heard that the Whitehurst Cattle Co. down the road from them also has some water buffalo along with there cattle operation.

Did you ask him what they are doing with all these buffalo?
Are all 800 his ?
Are they for beef, are they milking them or providing stock for dairies?
Dying to know the details.
Dr High is an interesting man.

Ironically, on the front page of todays RUTLAND HERALD there is a story about how the American Water Buffalo Association held its annual meeting at the Star Hill Water Buffalo Dairy in Woodstock Vermont.

VERY Interesting story.

Dr Hugh Popanoe has been just a few miles away from me all weekend talking to many farmers from both coasts about the benefits of raising these animals as beef and dairy animals.

People in the southern regions take note.

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs. ... 60368/1002


Comments ?

There is a missing sentence at the beginning which SHOULD read:

Muller's business success means that he needs more water buffalo milk— either from his own cows in terms of production or more cows, from another water buffalo farmer's cows.
I think that is the only error I found. If you find any more please let me know.

Also worth mentioning is the value of the milk, which wasn't discussed in the article.
They recieve $200-$250/100wt for their milk ( by selling product ) VS the $11.00 some farmers are currently getting for 100wt of milk.
They will pay farmers $75-$100+ for 100wt of milk to produce for them ( those were spring 2004 figures and I imagine it has increased as their demand has increased ).

Just wish they had listed how much the meat is bringing.

I do know that the WB bull calves are sold for $200 at a few days old. Many 4-H kids are buying them for projects, oxen and steer shows. The dairy has a waiting list for their bull calves.
I saw one on display at the annual Strolling of the Heifers on Saturday and asked the price. That is also when I found out about the big WBA meeting up the street.

As you can imagine, many people are taking notice of this new kind of enterprise.

 

[CopeMan]

Those things are ugly!! But I like it that people are trying new things.

 

[bgm]

Being fairly new to the cattle business, maybe I shouldn't reply, but who says' I've got an sense

In trying to figure out what breed of cattle would be the most profitable for me, I've went to sale barns, watched sales on the internet and tracked kinds, colors and such in regards to their prices. What I've concluded is that good cattle bring good prices -- period. Around here I can't find any solid evidence that color affects price. I'm sure there are places, and special sales where they do.

By the way, I do hope this thread goes on a while. I'm really enjoying the futile dispute ;-)

 

[CopeMan]

Hereford cows with an Angus bull!!

 

[dun]

Part of the high price of the milk is because of the availability. WB don;t milk as well as conventional dairy breeds and the milk is used for a specific cheeese, donm;t recall which one. Goat milk sells for more then cow milk also, it's a cost of production thing.
Having eaten WB in the Phillipines I can say it was good eating. The steaks were huge and coarse grained but tasty and kind of chewy. But the aniaml had probably served a full life working in a rice paddy before it found it's way to the table.
But I also liked the flavor of the imported New Zealand bull beef we used to be able to get when we were into the butcher shop business.

dun

 

[Caustic Burno]

Frankie you are so easy go fishing never have to change the bait and fill up the stringer everytime. Wouldn't take long to fish out your pond.

All you have to do is say an opinon on the hateful little Holstien crosses and your post go to looking like an explosion in a steel wool factory.

 

[Hutch]

Hey Frankie don't let them get to you

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

 

[BAGTIC]

My wife is Filipino and we I have made several trips to rural areas of the Philippines.

Some of these buffalo are huge and very well muscled. I don't know what their growth rate is. They do have a reputation for consuming coarse grasses that regular cattle pass up.

Most impressive to me is to see a 10 year old kid riding a 2,000+ pound animal down a trail or leading it by a rope through the nose. Don't know if this docility is typical but among 'family' animals that have daily human contact they seem very calm even around strangers.

Several years ago the United Nations (F.A.O.?) published a comprehensive reference book about water buffalo. I have one but it is in storage and I can not find it right now.

One of the things that impressed me is that there are 'improved' varieties. India has develeped 'dairy buffalo' that produce about twice the milk of common ones. In Trinidad there was a herd of improved polled buffalo being developed for meat. There was a photo of about 5-6 young animals standing side by side and when I saw it I could not believe they were 'those things'. They looked like outstanding younf beef animals.

I am surprised to learn there is a dairy herd in Vermont. Last I heard there were buffalo dairies in California and Tennessee but that was quite a while past.

 

[KMacGinley]

There is no bad breed just poor cattleman with poor management. Angus were a good breed like a lot of others until they started slipping Maine into the woodpile. The thing thats bothers me about the Angus people is they can't see that all breeds have a place in a given enviroment. They want to turn the world black and spout about pure Angus.
Its just amazing how those little Aberdeen Angus cows that weighed 800 pounds and the bulls 1200 went to 2500 lb bulls that don't even resemble Angus.
Ah yes Frankie I do have some registered Angus in my pasture.
They are not the best cattle, good but not the best.
From a cowmans view I will pick a Certified Herf/Bramer or Brangus as the best cattle. They return the most profit with the least income input.

I thought it was Chi and Holstein in the woodpile? Maine too?

 

[KMacGinley]

I know I'm fairly new on here but i thought this topic was to discuss water buffalo not to listen to a bunch of grown men fuss at each other like 6 year old girls. The fact is that there is a certified angus beef program. If you can benefit from it good. If you can't or don't want to then fine. No one is making anyone do anything. I like cattletoday because I can learn stuff about cattle that I admittingly don't know, but this is ridiculus.

I don't think that you should be calling Frankie a full grown Man.

 

[KMacGinley]

Franke quote: "Well, if I had something to sell we could work a deal because my Angus cattle haven't been crossed with anything. Again, you just want to bash Angus, without offering any proof or alternative."

Did all of your angus come from the Wye Plantation then?

Those are the only angus that I would bet haven't been crossed in this country.

 

[andybob]

A reasearch programe was carried out by the Rhodesian government during the '60s and'70s, breeding tame Cape Buffalo and Eland antelope. Apparently the Cape Buf were easily handled and steered buf were used as draught oxen.
With my experience with wild buffalo and the damage to our fences, I wouldn't touch them as a domestic animal. The Water buffalo although genetically compatable to Cape Buf, are as opposite as can be as far as temperament and production are concerned.