Can someone tell me how Angus is not a pyramid scheme?

[cmjust0]

Another alternative is for you to pay me $150,000 for my bull and then I can buy one from Dun for $150,000 and he can buy yours for $150,000. Now we all have $150,000 bulls and we are walking tall in the eyes of some people who might decide to pay us $5000 for a calf out of a $150,000 bull. After all, they just saved themselves $145,000 - didn't they? ;-)

BINGO.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Another alternative is for you to pay me $150,000 for my bull and then I can buy one from Dun for $150,000 and he can buy yours for $150,000. Now we all have $150,000 bulls and we are walking tall in the eyes of some people who might decide to pay us $5000 for a calf out of a $150,000 bull. After all, they just saved themselves $145,000 - didn't they? ;-)

BINGO.

I think this is referred to as a "round robin". The basis is an animal is worth what someone will pay. You may be willing pay that but I'm not.

 

[KMacGinley]

There are hundreds of AI bulls that have sold over $150,000 worth of semen and certificates in the Angus breed, in other breeds, too.

The people who bought the Angus bull "Midland" sold enough pieces of the bull to get their money back in just a few weeks. After that, semen sales and AI certs ($50 and $50) were just gravy for them.

For an extreme example, Bon View New Design 1407 just passed away. According to his Obit, he sired 20,000 reg. progeny and 25,000 commercial progeny. Combined that is 45,000 straws of semen, assume a 75% conception rate and assume that there are probably another 10,000 straws in tanks or as growing calves inside of cows and that translates into 66,000 straws sold. At $20 a straw that is $1,320,000 worth of semen sold plus $800,000 in certificates and he has grossed over $2 million for his owners not counting the value of his progeny.....and they still have existing semen stocks so they aren't done yet. I know that 1407 is an EXTREME example, but THAT is a lot of money and other breeders all dream of that same home run shot. Bulls eye Genetics ALONE has 369 Angus semen sires available.

This is a sad, sad, Story.

 

[hgfarmer]

There are hundreds of AI bulls that have sold over $150,000 worth of semen and certificates in the Angus breed, in other breeds, too.

The people who bought the Angus bull "Midland" sold enough pieces of the bull to get their money back in just a few weeks. After that, semen sales and AI certs ($50 and $50) were just gravy for them.

For an extreme example, Bon View New Design 1407 just passed away. According to his Obit, he sired 20,000 reg. progeny and 25,000 commercial progeny. Combined that is 45,000 straws of semen, assume a 75% conception rate and assume that there are probably another 10,000 straws in tanks or as growing calves inside of cows and that translates into 66,000 straws sold. At $20 a straw that is $1,320,000 worth of semen sold plus $800,000 in certificates and he has grossed over $2 million for his owners not counting the value of his progeny.....and they still have existing semen stocks so they aren't done yet. I know that 1407 is an EXTREME example, but THAT is a lot of money and other breeders all dream of that same home run shot. Bulls eye Genetics ALONE has 369 Angus semen sires available.

This is a sad, sad, Story. [/quot



Why so sad? Because your not making $2 million of your bulls....

 

[Nowland Farms]

Another alternative is for you to pay me $150,000 for my bull and then I can buy one from Dun for $150,000 and he can buy yours for $150,000. Now we all have $150,000 bulls and we are walking tall in the eyes of some people who might decide to pay us $5000 for a calf out of a $150,000 bull. After all, they just saved themselves $145,000 - didn't they? ;-)

Joo, Count me in on that deal, I've got a nice looking bull that I would let go for say...... $150,000. Since I've used this bull in my herd and I am ready to let him go, I'll need another good bull. I should have somewhere around $150,000 to spend, let me know what you have. ;-)

 

[Jogeephus]

Another alternative is for you to pay me $150,000 for my bull and then I can buy one from Dun for $150,000 and he can buy yours for $150,000. Now we all have $150,000 bulls and we are walking tall in the eyes of some people who might decide to pay us $5000 for a calf out of a $150,000 bull. After all, they just saved themselves $145,000 - didn't they? ;-)

Joo, Count me in on that deal, I've got a nice looking bull that I would let go for say...... $150,000. Since I've used this bull in my herd and I am ready to let him go, I'll need another good bull. I should have somewhere around $150,000 to spend, let me know what you have. ;-)

What a coincidence, I just so happen to have one my wife appraised at $150,000 too! His daddy was the grand champion of something or nother and he has papers but I'll have to ask the breeder for them since I didn't bother to pay the extra for the paper. Figured he was going to do what I wanted him to do without any papers. I have also trained him in AI work and he has a far better conception rate than most technicians. His name is MISTER Ballsac.

But on the other hand, with the price of diesel going out the roof, why don't I just offer you $150,000 for your bull and you do the same for me. We can both turn the offers down but from this day on we can both TRUTHFULLY say we turned down $150,000 for our bulls. ;-) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TheBullLady]

lol.. now that's a marketing ploy if ever I saw one! "I turned down $150,000 for my bull"... :lol: I love it!

 

[Brandonm2]

Another alternative is for you to pay me $150,000 for my bull and then I can buy one from Dun for $150,000 and he can buy yours for $150,000. Now we all have $150,000 bulls and we are walking tall in the eyes of some people who might decide to pay us $5000 for a calf out of a $150,000 bull. After all, they just saved themselves $145,000 - didn't they? ;-)

Joo, Count me in on that deal, I've got a nice looking bull that I would let go for say...... $150,000. Since I've used this bull in my herd and I am ready to let him go, I'll need another good bull. I should have somewhere around $150,000 to spend, let me know what you have. ;-)

What a coincidence, I just so happen to have one my wife appraised at $150,000 too! His daddy was the grand champion of something or nother and he has papers but I'll have to ask the breeder for them since I didn't bother to pay the extra for the paper. Figured he was going to do what I wanted him to do without any papers. I have also trained him in AI work and he has a far better conception rate than most technicians. His name is MISTER Ballsac.

But on the other hand, with the price of diesel going out the roof, why don't I just offer you $150,000 for your bull and you do the same for me. We can both turn the offers down but from this day on we can both TRUTHFULLY say we turned down $150,000 for our bulls. ;-) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ya'll are doing this ALL wrong!!! Don't sell the WHOLE bull, just sell half interest in the bull. If half interest is worth $150,000 that would imply that the bull is REALLY a $300,000 bull. Nowland can sell half interest in his bull for $150,000 to Dun. Dun can sell half interest in his bull for $150,000 to Joe. Joe can sell half interest in his bull to Nowland for $150,000. Everybody then has two bulls market valued for $600,000 and nobody has really spent a cent.

 

[HEREFORD ROADHOG]

Another alternative is for you to pay me $150,000 for my bull and then I can buy one from Dun for $150,000 and he can buy yours for $150,000. Now we all have $150,000 bulls and we are walking tall in the eyes of some people who might decide to pay us $5000 for a calf out of a $150,000 bull. After all, they just saved themselves $145,000 - didn't they? ;-)

Ding ding ding ding!!!!! We have a winner!

Another point to note: Write down the name of the buyer in the sale catalog, then look a year later and see who owns the cow. It will often be the seller, with no mention of the buyer in the breed's records. I wonder what happened?

what happened is they had a prearranged deal to inflate the price & sale average !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HerefordSire]

Think about it for a while....


How many ignorant people have you met with about $1M? $150K is like 2 buck chuck to an asset rich middle class yuppie getting ready to inherit their mother's wealth.

Then market is very very very wise. People don't buy pre-arranged deals. That would be a prison sentence not to mention the trust involved and guilty conscience to live with the rest or your life looking in the mirror. That would be a death sentence! A long term suicide! If you pay $150K for a cow from me, I am not going to be pressured to buy your product. What is wrong with you people? Get real!

 

[Brandonm2]

Think about it for a while....


How many ignorant people have you met with about $1M? $150K is like 2 buck chuck to an asset rich middle class yuppie getting ready to inherit their mother's wealth.

Then market is very very very wise. People don't buy pre-arranged deals. That would be a prison sentence not to mention the trust involved and guilty conscience to live with the rest or your life looking in the mirror. That would be a death sentence! A long term suicide! If you pay $150K for a cow from me, I am not going to be pressured to buy your product. What is wrong with you people? Get real!

one out of every 125 Americans is a millionaire. How many of them are going to pay $150k for a beef cow is another story. And yes I believe that many/maybe most $150,000 bovine purchases are .....rigged to a point. And no nobody is going to go to jail because they "fixed" the bidding on lot 4 at the Foggy Bottoms Ranch Annual production sale. As to suicide...I don't know why anybody does that. And yes, if you came to my place and bought a $150k cow, you can just about be assured that when you have a production sale I will buy a $25,000 cow (I about have to to stay out of the highest tax bracket after that $150k sell).

 

[HerefordSire]

one out of every 125 Americans is a millionaire. How many of them are going to pay $150k for a beef cow is another story. And yes I believe that many/maybe most $150,000 bovine purchases are .....rigged to a point. And no nobody is going to go to jail because they "fixed" the bidding on lot 4 at the Foggy Bottoms Ranch Annual production sale. As to suicide...I don't know why anybody does that. And yes, if you came to my place and bought a $150k cow, you can just about be assured that when you have a production sale I will buy a $25,000 cow (I about have to to stay out of the highest tax bracket after that $150k sell).



Listen up! This ain rocket science...this is investing and using your head! Hi Brandon..


6 flushes average * 3 per year = 18 embryos per year per cow.
5 years of flushing * 18 embryos per year = 90 embryos.

$150K purshase price / 90 embryos = $1.67K per embryo to break even


If I can afford $150K for a cow, I can afford 90 recipients to implant the embryos (actually 90/5 since they would be spread over 5 years). 90 ET calves * $5K = $450,000 not to mention the 5 natural calves per year of a total of $475,000.


What are you going to do with the $325K profit? A small amount would be for insurance and to buy the next cow! The rest? Buy gold for the up and coming depression.

 

[Frankie]

Think about it for a while....


How many ignorant people have you met with about $1M? $150K is like 2 buck chuck to an asset rich middle class yuppie getting ready to inherit their mother's wealth.

Then market is very very very wise. People don't buy pre-arranged deals. That would be a prison sentence not to mention the trust involved and guilty conscience to live with the rest or your life looking in the mirror. That would be a death sentence! A long term suicide! If you pay $150K for a cow from me, I am not going to be pressured to buy your product. What is wrong with you people? Get real!

one out of every 125 Americans is a millionaire. How many of them are going to pay $150k for a beef cow is another story. And yes I believe that many/maybe most $150,000 bovine purchases are .....rigged to a point. And no nobody is going to go to jail because they "fixed" the bidding on lot 4 at the Foggy Bottoms Ranch Annual production sale. As to suicide...I don't know why anybody does that. And yes, if you came to my place and bought a $150k cow, you can just about be assured that when you have a production sale I will buy a $25,000 cow (I about have to to stay out of the highest tax bracket after that $150k sell).

I don't think prices are "fixed". But I do think that if I went to a sale and bought a $200,000 cow, that guy would show up at my next production sale and buy something. Problem is, I don't expect to ever have a production sale! Even if I did have a sale, would he show up at my next sale and the next one? That's why I contend that marketing is very important. We pay very little attention to catalogs that tout how much a cow, her daughter, granddam, etc., sold for over the last few years and much more attention to how many calves weaned at what ratio.

 

[Frankie]

Listen up! This ain rocket science...this is investing and using your head! Hi Brandon..


6 flushes average * 3 per year = 18 embryos per year per cow.
5 years of flushing * 18 embryos per year = 90 embryos.

$150K purshase price / 90 embryos = $1.67K per embryo to break even


If I can afford $150K for a cow, I can afford 90 recipients to implant the embryos (actually 90/5 since they would be spread over 5 years). 90 ET calves * $5K = $450,000 not to mention the 5 natural calves per year of a total of $475,000.


What are you going to do with the $325K profit? A small amount would be for insurance and to buy the next cow! The rest? Buy gold for the up and coming depression.

It's not investing, it's the cattle business. You're not going to get that many live calves, if you are successful flushing the cow at all. Where are you going to sell these calves for $5,000 a head? You still need a market. There are development costs on 90 calves. There are flushing costs, price of recips, maintaining recips, synch recips, vet costs. Sure you can "afford it" but will you make any money in the end? It's pure speculation on your part.

 

[HerefordSire]

Listen up! This ain rocket science...this is investing and using your head! Hi Brandon..


6 flushes average * 3 per year = 18 embryos per year per cow.
5 years of flushing * 18 embryos per year = 90 embryos.

$150K purshase price / 90 embryos = $1.67K per embryo to break even


If I can afford $150K for a cow, I can afford 90 recipients to implant the embryos (actually 90/5 since they would be spread over 5 years). 90 ET calves * $5K = $450,000 not to mention the 5 natural calves per year of a total of $475,000.


What are you going to do with the $325K profit? A small amount would be for insurance and to buy the next cow! The rest? Buy gold for the up and coming depression.

It's not investing, it's the cattle business. You're not going to get that many live calves, if you are successful flushing the cow at all. Where are you going to sell these calves for $5,000 a head? You still need a market. There are development costs on 90 calves. There are flushing costs, price of recips, maintaining recips, synch recips, vet costs. Sure you can "afford it" but will you make any money in the end? It's pure speculation on your part.

I bet you like certificates of deposits with theoretically no risk @ 2% per year for a five year tie up. Gee, I bet you are hyrtin for cyrtin. Do you have 5 bucks I can borrow for two and 1/2 bottles of two buch chuck?

 

[jscunn]

HerefordSire,

While I have trouble with you math (ie 6 flushes per year plus a natural calf & your 100% success rate on implantation) I will let the little stuff go, but since you have this all figured out please tell me...


Who do you plan on selling the 90 ET calves too?? My experience is the $5,000 sale is the hardest to make. That number doesnt pencil out for the commercial guys buying bulls and females that dont into transfer will not bring that number either (usually). Also have you checked records on cows, few very few cows have 90 or more progeny recorded way less than 1% .

Good luck.

 

[HerefordSire]

HerefordSire,

While I have trouble with you math (ie 6 flushes per year plus a natural calf & your 100% success rate on implantation) I will let the little stuff go, but since you have this all figured out please tell me...


Who do you plan on selling the 90 ET calves too?? My experience is the $5,000 sale is the hardest to make. That number doesnt pencil out for the commercial guys buying bulls and females that dont into transfer will not bring that number either (usually). Also have you checked records on cows, few very few cows have 90 or more progeny recorded way less than 1% .

Good luck.

127 / 5 = 25 = my average embryos per year. Take half for success = 12 per year per cow. I was conservative at 6 and the $5K per calf. The calves should sell for around $10-20K. Very few cows are sold for $150K also which is why you have to work to find them.

To answer your "Sell" question...allow me to ask you this...if you were an purple elephant looking for a mate, where would you go? I will tell you where.....go to Africa and sit by a water hole and the ladies will come right to you.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

This thread has turned out to be rather hilarious!

No better advertising (P.T. Barnum) that saying "I turned down $150K for my bull"

Reminds me of a story:

A manufacturer was selling truck load lots of canned beans. The jobber sold them to the Wholesaler. The wholesaler bought the beans and sold them to a retailer. Funniest thing...the CONSUMER had the audacity to actually OPEN the can of beans to find out there was nothing in the can! Everyone took their cut and the consumer was left holding the (bag) can of beans...

 

[Brandonm2]

Listen up! This ain rocket science...this is investing and using your head! Hi Brandon..


6 flushes average * 3 per year = 18 embryos per year per cow.
5 years of flushing * 18 embryos per year = 90 embryos.

$150K purshase price / 90 embryos = $1.67K per embryo to break even


If I can afford $150K for a cow, I can afford 90 recipients to implant the embryos (actually 90/5 since they would be spread over 5 years). 90 ET calves * $5K = $450,000 not to mention the 5 natural calves per year of a total of $475,000.


What are you going to do with the $325K profit? A small amount would be for insurance and to buy the next cow! The rest? Buy gold for the up and coming depression.

""IF"" you can sell 95 calves at $5000 avg per head year in and year out, yes you can make money. There ARE people out there that do command those kinds of prices. Other registered producers sell 40-50% of their calf crop with the commercial calves and struggle to avg $2000 a head on the rest. The last reg sale I went to, didn't have a $2000 cow in the whole sale.

 

[dun]

""IF"" you can sell 95 calves at $5000 avg per head year in and year out, yes you can make money. There ARE people out there that do command those kinds of prices. Other registered producers sell 40-50% of their calf crop with the commercial calves and struggle to avg $2000 a head on the rest. The last reg sale I went to, didn't have a $2000 cow in the whole sale.

But the computer says it can be done!