Calving ease/Birthweight

[Ky hills]

This topic has came up on a few different threads recently, and it is of interest to me. I sell some bred heifers each year, and one of the main goals of the sale is to provide replacement females that have as many variables contained as possible, so that as many live healthy calves are on the ground as possible. Of these variables, the use of calving ease bulls is a must. I try to use bulls with high enough CED's that if they fluctuate, they will still be CE. I am hearing on here that a lot of folks see issues with real small calves, and I have heard of several cases, where cows as well as heifers have had tiny calves. I have heard some reasoning for it is that from using light birthweight bulls for multiple generations. A friend has bought some heifers from me through the sale for at least 3 years,
last year he had a heifer to have a calf of about 30 pounds. I think it lived for a while but died after a few days. After that I used a different AI bull. Knowing that the female accounts for half of the genetics, are there bulls that are more consistent with a range of birthweights than others? I want to try to insure as much calving ease, but at the same time I would like to avoid the too small calves.

 

[cowgirl8]

People confuse low birthweight and premature which can happen with any age cow. They are two different things. Preemies are one thing, depending on how early, they can be weak. Our lbw bulls produce anything from 30 pounds to 75. The smaller full term calves will come out standing up and nursing in a matter of minutes. That is our goal for a heifers calf. The harder the birth, the likelihood that heifer is going to be a problem. Also just because you use a bull with good calving ease does not mean you can just turn them out on their own.

 

[Ky hills]

Getting a healthy, vigorous calf on the ground, with a cow or heifer that isn't too terribly stressed any more than would be expected, is the goal here too. When I hear folks having 30 lb calves that tends to make me wonder if its going a bit too far, at least for most breeds, Angus, included. If the calves are healthy and they grow out to suit, then that is fine. Our heifers are predominantly BWF, Angus, and Hereford, they go through a state college guideline health program, yearling measurements, are over the 160cm. minimum and those that are under are culled, most are consistently between 180-200+cm.
In the past we have had issues with coyotes and buzzards. I check them frequently during calving times. Depending on weather sometimes put close up ones in the barn, but prefer them outside.
I guess my question is, and I realize this is dependent on ones personal beliefs and views of EPD's, and I am in no way trying to be controversial or disapproving of them in any way. Do the really high CED, low BW bulls tend to sire a percentage of the very light, say 30-40 lbs calves. I had heard a few instances of very small calves from a particular bull, and one of my friends had one of them from a son of that bull, out of one of the heifers purchased from me. My first Angus "heifer bull" had a CED of 7, he was easy calving from the standpoint that the only calf pulled was a incorrect birth presentation. His calves were all over the scale as far as size, with one from a heifer that I couldn't believe she actually had the calf by herself. I realize the female influences the size too, but do some bulls tend to be more consistent in terms of range of BW?

 

[cowgirl8]

Ours usually are all over the board with the majority within 50... we'll have a few dinks, and a few monsters.. One year some new heifer bulls plopped out such small calves it was like i had a pasture of baby goats. Each year seems to trend something...Last year our heifers udders sucked..tiny little things. Some also didnt want their calves.. This year, great udders and they want a calf so bad they'll try to take someones before they spit theirs out. This year the size of calves have been pretty consistently around 50 pounds, about 1/3rd done...This is the second year for the two heifer bulls. We'll probably buy a new set next year..if we keep any heifers. Didnt plan to this last season, but ended up with 44...erk

 

[Ky hills]

We had a fiasco with a first calver trying to claim another cows calf, a few weeks ago. She started being obsessed with a 3 day old calf from another cow, the day before she calved. The next morning, still running after that calf and no sign of her calving yet. That evening found a calf down in the mud. I guess she had it and went back to chasing after the other calf.

 

[dun]

Our BW from cows and heifers hasn;t varied by more then 20 lbs for a good many years. Between cows it's less than 10 lbs and the same for heifers. But all but 2 of our cows/heifers are descended from just 2 cows.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Have never had a calf under 55lbs here, and that was out of an accidental 14mo old heifer.

 

[wbvs58]

With those real low BW calves I think you have to consider things like Pesti virus. Heifers are going to be the age group that are going to be most sosceptible.
Ken

 

[Muddy]

A 30lbs angus calf is too extreme for many folks. We preferred 60-70lbs on first calvers. If a cow OR a heifer cannot birth a 30lbs calf, they're gone or sell them to cowgirl8. But I never heard of anyone using extremely low BW Angus bulls here.

 

[dun]

If we got a 30 lb calf I'ld be looking for a dexter bull that came visiting

 

[Workinonit Farm]

If we got a 30 lb calf I'ld be looking for a dexter bull that came visiting

:nod: :nod: :nod:

Either that or it's a preemie.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

I can't imagine such small size calves like 30lbs. :shock: It's away too small. I prefer when heifers have ~75-80lbs calves, never have problems with them. Cows can have any size calves as long as they are born naturally, are alive and nurse without problems. But don't like big calves much. Over 110lbs is big for us.
The recent bull we use is an easy calving one. However the difference between his smallest and biggest calves is ~90lbs. The smallest was from 15months old heifer, ~70lbs, the biggest was from the 3rd calver, ~160lbs . His average calves BW is ~80-90lbs. Have very few big calves, but they are born from cows, which tend to have big ones. Every year the average BW is different for heifers and cows. This year almost all are abit smaller than average, last year calves were bigger by a couple pounds.

A friend of mine had a problem when, after using a low BW bulls over generations, his cows weren't able to deliver even 80-85lbs calves in natural way. He decided to cull all his herd and replace it with other heifers/cows.

 

[Ky hills]

I like to see Angus and commercial Angus cross heifers have calves around 60-75 lbs. I was fascinated to hear a few years back about reports of 30 lb. calves, from Angus. Prior to that I just thought that was Jersey sized calves, even though I think my Jersey calves were probably some bigger than that. Then when my friend had a little calf out of a probably 1100lb. commercial Angus heifer, I remembered about the stories I had heard of previously. When I had Charolais, my heifers could mostly have calves 100+ lbs. unassisted. I weighed my calves at that time, and had a range from 60-135 lbs. from cows, over the years, with those numbers being rare, the majority were around 90-120 lbs. Granted, I think those average weights are too high for Angus, Hereford based cows.

 

[texast]

I thought I posted this on here, but don't see it so forgive me if it show up twice.
When I was growing up we never really paid any attention to the bulls calving ease epd. I was told to breed to an Angus bull for first time heifers, but my family did not like Angus so we used our polled Hereford bull, he worked really well for us.
The most attention we gave to breeding first time heifers was waiting unit they were near 2 years old and we would not breed them to our Charolaise bull, and some not even to the Brahman bull we had.
QUESTION: Do you think waiting until they are near 2 to breed helps with the calving ease?
I hear some breeders putting the bull in with the heifers after they've turned 15 months.

 

[dun]

I thought I posted this on here, but don't see it so forgive me if it show up twice.
When I was growing up we never really paid any attention to the bulls calving ease epd. I was told to breed to an Angus bull for first time heifers, but my family did not like Angus so we used our polled Hereford bull, he worked really well for us.
The most attention we gave to breeding first time heifers was waiting unit they were near 2 years old and we would not breed them to our Charolaise bull, and some not even to the Brahman bull we had.
QUESTION: Do you think waiting until they are near 2 to breed helps with the calving ease?
I hear some breeders putting the bull in with the heifers after they've turned 15 months.

Waiting that long can create it's own problems. The bones are starting to knot and get their final shape (not the right word but all I can think of right now) by the time they would be calving. Most people calve their heifers around 2 years of age

 

[Muddy]

I like to see Angus and commercial Angus cross heifers have calves around 60-75 lbs. I was fascinated to hear a few years back about reports of 30 lb. calves, from Angus. Prior to that I just thought that was Jersey sized calves, even though I think my Jersey calves were probably some bigger than that. Then when my friend had a little calf out of a probably 1100lb. commercial Angus heifer, I remembered about the stories I had heard of previously. When I had Charolais, my heifers could mostly have calves 100+ lbs. unassisted. I weighed my calves at that time, and had a range from 60-135 lbs. from cows, over the years, with those numbers being rare, the majority were around 90-120 lbs. Granted, I think those average weights are too high for Angus, Hereford based cows.

Take a grain of salt with cowgirl8's statement about 30lbs Angus calves, she probably never did weight them other than eyeballing it. I don't think 90-100lbs are too high for Angus/Hereford cows.....130-160lbs yes that's too high for most cows regardless of what breed. But I never heard of any bulls of Angus or other standard breeds that throws 30-40lbs calves.

 

[Nesikep]

I thought I posted this on here, but don't see it so forgive me if it show up twice.
When I was growing up we never really paid any attention to the bulls calving ease epd. I was told to breed to an Angus bull for first time heifers, but my family did not like Angus so we used our polled Hereford bull, he worked really well for us.
The most attention we gave to breeding first time heifers was waiting unit they were near 2 years old and we would not breed them to our Charolaise bull, and some not even to the Brahman bull we had.
QUESTION: Do you think waiting until they are near 2 to breed helps with the calving ease?
I hear some breeders putting the bull in with the heifers after they've turned 15 months.

we did it for about 6-8 years... I can't say there was any PROBLEM with it, but honestly, there was no benefit to it either, and it took FOREVER to grow the herd, and I still had utter failures on some animals. In an ideal world, I'd wait until 16-18 months to breed, but I'm not going to be bothered with 2 calving seasons, so 14 months it is.

 

[Ebenezer]

Do you think waiting until they are near 2 to breed helps with the calving ease?

Depends on two things.

1-way the heifers are fed from weaning until calving. Too fat is probably worse on a 33 month old heifer than a 24 month old heifer because the elder has been getting fatter for an additional 9 months. Just as a comparative, most grassfed beef is harvested at 24 months plus with adequate fat especially on the spring flush of their second year.

2- genetics is a big key. If a herd has selected for big cattle with terminal traits, the fertility of the females has been secondary priorities and the late breeding will allow sub fertile and late developing females to breed a little better. But it does not guarantee that they will have longterm productivity. One example was the former registered Angus herd in Albany, GA that was famed for growth. A herd that has selected for small and low growth cattle will make butterballs by 24 months, maybe if bred but worse if open, and by 33 months will be round and rollie-pollie.

There is a reason that longterm breeders and thinkers avoid extremes in types and traits.

 

[Ky hills]

I thought I posted this on here, but don't see it so forgive me if it show up twice.
When I was growing up we never really paid any attention to the bulls calving ease epd. I was told to breed to an Angus bull for first time heifers, but my family did not like Angus so we used our polled Hereford bull, he worked really well for us.
The most attention we gave to breeding first time heifers was waiting unit they were near 2 years old and we would not breed them to our Charolaise bull, and some not even to the Brahman bull we had.
QUESTION: Do you think waiting until they are near 2 to breed helps with the calving ease?
I hear some breeders putting the bull in with the heifers after they've turned 15 months.

I don't think waiting till 2 yrs. to breed gains anything. I like for them to be 15 months old, but lots of times they are just 14, and they
do ok, of course things can go wrong on occasion, but overall they do pretty well.

 

[Son of Butch]

QUESTION: Do you think waiting until they are near 2 to breed helps with the calving ease?

I don't think so.
I can tell you from experience we had more problems calving Holstein heifers over 32 months of age (bred at 23+ mos)
than calving them at 25 months. I assume it would be true of beef heifers, though I have no experience calving them that old.

Personally I prefer calving at 23-24 months.
Seems to me it adds 1 more calf to the cow's lifetime production vs waiting nearly another year.
She would have to raise a whale of a calf every year for the rest of her life to even come close to the younger cow's
head start on total lifetime pounds weaned. IMO calving at 23 months is definitely more profitable than 30 months.