Calving ease

[kenny thomas]

With a big push for calving ease for several years have some really cost themselves lots of money by getting much smaller weaning weights. As i was rotating pasture today i notices a calf from a cow i bought last summer. Its a month old and wont weigh 80 lb. It will never be much.
We see Lithuanian farmer with calves born usassisted weighing 120lb. Im not going to try for that but have many gone to far the other other way? If in a herd of 20 cows you loose 50 lb per calf weighing weight is it better to loose a big calf occasionally and gain in the end?

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

Caving ease is one thing, calves that fall out when the mom stands up and grows like a bad weed is another. For 10 years average birth weight was 68# love my Iimflex

 

[Silver]

Caving ease is one thing, calves that fall out when the mom stands up and grows like a bad weed is another. For 10 years average birth weight was 68# love my Iimflex

What would these bad weeds weigh at 205 days?

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

I don't have the facilities to weigh them at that age, but they're 875# on the rail at17 months alfalfa only. My girls had calving ease built in. I AI'd them to anything same birth weight.

 

[farmerjan]

I agree that we are slowing making our cattle smaller with all the calving ease... that said, I use a calving ease bull on the heifers... but the cows all have plus weight bulls... not calving ease. I want a decent sized calf out of a cow... and I want it to grow... part of that is the cow though... she has got to milk.

 

[Josher]

I think this low birth weight high calving ease has gone a little too far. It's one thing to pick a bull for the heifer pen. But for the cows I think your throwing money away by using the trendy calving ease bulls. I was a little worried I had went too far the other way with my cows. Used ellingson three rivers on some cows. He has a CED of -8. Had no issues thankfully. Wouldn't use him on heifers but calf size was good for cows.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

What would these bad weeds weigh at 205 days?

On good feed and genetics a calf can make up a 20# birth difference In no time I think. But I'm Small Potatoes.

 

[50/50Farms]

I must confess that on our old place we ran the same bull on both heifers and our regular mamas more than a few years. You can select on the female end just as much as you can select on the male end. Simply put, anything that cannot reproduce efficiently under range conditions is passing that on.

 

[wbvs58]

I think with extreme calving ease you are right but if calving ease comes from shorter gestation I don't think there is a problem with growth. An extreme example was a heifer I had born 30 days before due date and birth weight 18kg (39.6 lbs) and she went on to be my heaviest heifer at weaning and 2nd heaviest overall.

Ken

 

[BFE]

I'm like Named'em Tamed'em if I were any smaller potatoes I'd be rice, but I don't get caught up in LBW. I try to stay away from extremes either way in that regard.

 

[TCRanch]

Calving ease doesn't always mean low birth weight. I use calving ease bulls on my heifers, average birth weight 70-75 lbs. Those bulls generally graduate to the main herd when I need to sell a herd sire (for whatever reason). So yeah, I'll end up with a calving ease bull on my mature cows, but easy fleshing, and I expect mama to raise 'em right.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

All depends though how you are set up, or?
Heifer bull BW under 80lb, somewhere in the 70's. Herdbull I like to stay in the 90's. Bullbreeder says he expects a cow to deliver a 100lb calf or it's a waste of time financially speaking.
That may be true on a bigger scale, but once you are aiming for at least 100lbs. how work intense is calving going to be, as in assisting birth, even if it is just a little help? I'm asking you for your experiences.
Another thought that crossed my mind is how perky are those + 100lbs calves compared to 80-95lbs calves?
Oh, just remembered another question: Breeding for +100lbs calves, what does it do to the longevity/productivity of the cow?
I'm not knocking anybody for their own ideas and choices...... in the end we all try to do what fits us individually best.

 

[Dave]

Here various low birth weight bulls are used on heifers to make calving easier. But none of the heifers from heifers are kept. The heifers a person should keep are ones out of older cows who still have good udders, feet, and have raised a calf every year for 7, 8, 9, 10 years.

 

[Dsth]

Seem as though the AI stud I use has put too much emphasis on CE. the last few years it is hard to find a red angus bull that is not a high CE bull. Blacks have a bigger selection but still hard to find other traits I like without settling for a high CE bull. I look at weaning weight as a determining factor when using CE bulls.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Most here know our system more or less. But wanted to add some stuff. An easy calving bull is considered to be under 90lbs here. Not talking about my opinion alone. It's a pretty standart view here overall. Would be nearly impossible to find a farm, where all calves would be under 70lbs. An overall average would be around 80-100lbs, depending from the farm and breed. Know some Angus breeders where many calves go over 100lbs, some over 110lbs.
To answer some general questions- those cows, which always have small calves at birth usually don't stay here for long. The main reason is that their calves are lighter at the weaning. No difference in conception between them and those which have 100lbs calves. Those, which had calves over 110-120lbs most of the time return back in calf on time. Except if they had some serious issues, like metritis, retained placenta, but it can happen for cows with small calves too. Our cows start showing age at around 12-13 years. Rarely younger. Some could live even longer, but needs to have a spot for heifers, so the oldest cows are the first ones to go most of the time.
About calf vigour: 100lbs calf is as bright as the smaller ones. Some issues start appearing when bw is at 100lbs and over. Not always, but it happens. Also another issue, which is actually more common with big newborns than lazy, stubborn calf, is them not being able to hold their weight on their legs. Especially if calf has small bones, but plenty of muscles at birth. The calf can be as bright as possible, want to suck 5min after birth, but find it hard to lift his weight for the first day.
If there are any other questions about big calves feel free to ask. If I could I wouldn't choose anything under or over 85-110lbs range. But I'd rather prefer a bigger calf than a teeny tiny one.

 

[Son of Butch]

If in a herd of 20 cows you lose 50 lb per calf weighing weight is it better to loose a big calf occasionally and gain in the end?

Good question.
But do you gain in total pounds weaned per cow exposed when death loss increases?
Hog producers would answer No. The number of live pigs weaned per sow is their most profitable economic indicator.
That's why white pigs are so popular in commercial production.

It takes better record keeping than what most beef producers do to arrive at the correct answer as to the point of diminishing returns.
In my opinion to increase profit cow/calf producers should focus on total pounds weaned per cow exposed.
Actual record keeping is the key to answer the question, unfortunately most use speculation or go by the seat of their pants.

 

[simme]

Seems reasonable that a calf that weighs more at birth would have a head start on weaning weight over a much smaller bw calf. But we know that the continental breeds came to the US with very high and very undesirable birth weights. Through selection, those birth weights have been decreased significantly while maintaining growth.

There is a simmental/simangus operation in Alabama that runs about 800 cows and sold 180 bulls last year. Seems like most of the bulls they use tend toward calving ease and low bw. For their annual production sale, they publish bw and ratios, weaning weight and ratios, yearling weight and ratios and frame score. From the data published, I can't see that they are suffering on growth. Of course, they are selling the better bulls with the rest going to the feedlot and we don't see the data on those.

Looking at one sire group (calves sired by the same sire), these are the birth weights and weaning weights on the 7 calves sold in that group: 59# and 781#, 61 and 799, 77 and 779, 75 and 825, 64 and 731, 61 and 705, 74 and 797. All weights adjusted for age of dam and for 205 days. The sire is top 10% for CE in the simmental database, top 25% for BW, top 25% for ww, and top 15% for yw. Frame score on this group was from 5.2 to 5.9. Full disclosure - the sire group I picked from the sale catalog appears to have the biggest spread of bw to ww. So this group does not reflect the average. But on the average, they seem to be doing well on growth with their CE bulls.

Also, I think that optimum birth weight varies by area. Those continentals from the late 60's must have fit the needs in Europe, but not here in the US as far as CE and BW. Final and maybe most important point - seems that selection for most traits needs to not be for extremes either way. Long term, selection for extremes will result in extreme cattle if replacements come from the herd. Chasing maximum growth (or milk or CE or BW or marbling, etc) might lead to an undesirable destination. Less concern if all calves go to market, but be aware of interactions of one trait on another.

 

[mwj]

The short gestation calving ease bulls raise another question. If the calf is born 6 days early,do you weigh it at birth or at 6 days?

If another cow was bred the same day and went full term should the calves be compared at the same length of time from conception?

6Dayys growth needs to be accounted for whether it occurred inside or outside of the cow!

 

[Son of Butch]

The short gestation calving ease bulls raise another question. If the calf is born 6 days early, do you weigh it at birth or at 6 days?

duh.... Birth weight means birth weight.... not weight the week after birth
Must hang around 'show' crowd where they're accustomed to supplying false info. ie calf born 4 months 'early' so reported
'alternate' later birth date to give themselves an advantage in the show ring.

 

[mwj]

duh.... Birth weight means birth weight.
Must hang around 'show' crowd where they're accustomed to supplying false info. ie calf born 4 months 'early' so reported
'alternate' later birth date to give themselves an advantage in the show ring.

I did not say ''birth weight''. I am talking about gestational ''full term'' from conception


Do midgets come from women that had them premature?.