Calf Won't Suck - TIP

[randiliana]

Here is what I do with a non-sucker. It requires a bit of work, but it is less stressful, and has worked for me every time.

I have never yet been able to force a calf to suck. If the instinct is not there, it seems it is not there.

So, rather than fighting with them, I simply tube them. Make sure they get at least one, and preferably 2 good feeds of colostrum in the first 12 hours. Then I move them to either cow's milk (if I can easily milk her) or milk replacer. Mama cow's milk is preferable, as it reduces the chance of you having problems with her accepting the calf later. But if she is really hard to handle, I go the easy route and use milk replacer.

Tube the calf for 2-3 days, depending on how strong it is. I usually feed 3 times a day, morning, early afternoon and mid evening. On the last day (day 2 or 3) I don't feed them in the evening. Leave the calf in a small pen with mama, and in the morning he should have gotten hungry enough for that instinct to kick in.

So far, this has worked for me every time I have had to do it. It is a pain in the butt, but it works. You don't get stressed, and you don't stress either the calf or the cow.

The reason I feed for 2-3 days, is to give the calf a chance to build up a bit of reserve, so that when you leave it overnight, it has enough strength to last the night, and to get up and look for dinner. If you were to do this on day one you may end up with an even weaker calf that you would have to mess with for even longer.

Some calves are oxygen deprived from a long birth and it takes some time for them to figure things out.

Some can be Selenium deficient, which causes muscles to not work correctly so a shot of selenium can be beneficial, and won't likely hurt anything.

 

[Dave]

I use the same method that Randi described. It has sure worked for me.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As usual, Randi, good advice. Knock on wood (head!), we haven't had a dumb sucker for years. Oh - shut my mouth, lots of calves coming and I don't need to jinx myself. I basically use the same method.

 

[backhoeboogie]

As usual, Randi, good advice. Knock on wood (head!), we haven't had a dumb sucker for years. Oh - shut my mouth, lots of calves coming and I don't need to jinx myself. I basically use the same method.

Jeanne I have been reading about your Selenium deficiency in that area and thinking it makes sense because none of the rest of this thread does. I mean no disrespect in any way. If this is what you have to do in that area, then you should do it.

The die hard calves go in a chute with me straddling them, their backside to the wall, head up neck back, mouth open, nipple in and the milk trickling. They'll swallow eventually. Once the jaws start moving I start relaxing pressure.

The hardest ones are two to three week old splits that were on momma, split out at the sale barn, and now they have to take a bottle. New borns are slow but easier (and easier to handle). I will massage the heck out of a new born with a towel to get them stimulated.

I had one calf that was a hard pull. The neighbor's bull had circled thru three pastures to breed my heifers and they were too young. We did everything to save the heifer for three days and had to put her down. The calf wasn't dead but looked like it. It was very cold out. Put the calf on empty sacks in the back seat of the truck and drove home. Toweled it clean and got two pints of colostrum from the freezer down it. Gave it two more pints a few hours later. That calf was almost the first to ever be tube fed. The calf was on the bottle for three days and it was hard to get him grafted on to the nurse cow. I had to get my finger in his mouth and lead him to the teat, hook him up. He'd lose it and come back to me. Went through that for three days with that fella. Dumbest calf I've ever had.

 

[randiliana]

Jeanne I have been reading about your Selenium deficiency in that area and thinking it makes sense because none of the rest of this thread does. I mean no disrespect in any way. If this is what you have to do in that area, then you should do it.

The die hard calves go in a chute with me straddling them, their backside to the wall, head up neck back, mouth open, nipple in and the milk trickling. They'll swallow eventually. Once the jaws start moving I start relaxing pressure.

The hardest ones are two to three week old splits that were on momma, split out at the sale barn, and now they have to take a bottle. New borns are slow but easier (and easier to handle). I will massage the heck out of a new born with a towel to get them stimulated.

I had one calf that was a hard pull. The neighbor's bull had circled thru three pastures to breed my heifers and they were too young. We did everything to save the heifer for three days and had to put her down. The calf wasn't dead but looked like it. It was very cold out. Put the calf on empty sacks in the back seat of the truck and drove home. Toweled it clean and got two pints of colostrum from the freezer down it. Gave it two more pints a few hours later. That calf was almost the first to ever be tube fed. The calf was on the bottle for three days and it was hard to get him grafted on to the nurse cow. I had to get my finger in his mouth and lead him to the teat, hook him up. He'd lose it and come back to me. Went through that for three days with that fella. Dumbest calf I've ever had.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this post?? No one's saying that we do this with every calf, or even many calves. But it is just a lot easier than to spend hours fighting with one that won't suck. If your method works for you that is great!! But maybe you've just never run into a calf that won't suck no matter what you do. I believe in less stress, for me, for the cow and for the calf. And there is nothing like spending hours trying to get a calf to suck that causes a LOT of frustration!! And frustration just stresses everyone.....

 

[backhoeboogie]

It works for you Randi. Keep doing what works for you. You know cattle. Your cattle look fine in your herd pics.

To me it seems much harder and more risky. Sooner or later they're going to have nurse. I truly don't understand but don't have to. I googled the selenium thing from the other post. Perhaps that explains why. Otherwise, I truly don't understand. But I don't have to either.

If your method saves a calf for someone, they should be appreciative.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Backhoe - I'm sure a lot of people get tired of hearing me spout about Selenium. But, if you live in a SE deficient area - which pretty much all of the Northeast is - it causes multitude of problems in the cowherd - poor breeders, retained placentas, long slow labor, poor hair coat, unthrifty, scours. Calves get "White Muscle Disease". You could have calves looking great, turn them out & when they started running & playing, they could drop dead. Or, have calves that can hardly get up & move around. And, of course, the renowned Dumb Sucker. White Muscle Disease affects the large muscles in the calf. Heart, leg muscles, lungs, & tongue. So a Dumb Sucker CAN'T suck, they cannot manipulate their tongue.
This isn't my ranting of what I THINK it affects, this is vet/university proven facts.
And, OBTW, Texas is included!
I know, I know - give me proof. Here's an article from Ask the Vet, Vermont Beef Producers.
http://www.vermontbeefproducers.org/New ... l%2002.pdf

Here's another:
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/animalscience/b ... Cattle.pdf

 

[AngusLimoX]

I don't time table it as far as how many days to tube, but I also have no patience. 30 seconds to take the nipple, refuse, then here Hoser! :lol:

 

[backhoeboogie]

You're not ranting. And Randi has done nothing wrong either. Its just another one those things I have never seen. Its not like I haven't reared hundreds of bottle calves either. I read this post a few days ago and it made no sense to me. Then I read your post about selenium and googled it. Maybe it was the lightbulb going off thing. Maybe there is something to it.

I have gone to downer cows, pasted them with two tubes of CMPK, backed up and waited about 30 minutes to see them get up and go about their business. The owners were amazed - had "tried everything". Maybe some day I'll see what ya'll are describing. I've read both of ya'lls posts of this forum long enough to know you're not just ranting. I respect both of you.

 

[randiliana]

You're not ranting. And Randi has done nothing wrong either. Its just another one those things I have never seen. Its not like I haven't reared hundreds of bottle calves either. I read this post a few days ago and it made no sense to me. Then I read your post about selenium and googled it. Maybe it was the lightbulb going off thing. Maybe there is something to it.

I have gone to downer cows, pasted them with two tubes of CMPK, backed up and waited about 30 minutes to see them get up and go about their business. The owners were amazed - had "tried everything". Maybe some day I'll see what ya'll are describing. I've read both of ya'lls posts of this forum long enough to know you're not just ranting. I respect both of you.

Why, thank you You're not so bad yourself :cboy:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes - thanks!! We come on this forum to try to help - but, I also always learn something new. Hopefully, we always stay open minded enough to LEARN. It's a great sounding board.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I figured most of it was as Anguslimmo described. Then I googled and read the selenium thing. The light went off. This is probably real. Just two things I have never dealt with. Likely there are others just like me. I came back to this post and commented. Probably did not explain enough. Debate was never my intent. Just the fact that I have had some extreme hard cases. As said, I figure they have to nurse sooner or later and my thoughts have always been "get er done." I am a pretty stubborn one.

What I said about the two of you meaning good things for readers of this forum was sincere. I appreciate you both.

 

[dun]

We aren't in a selenium dificient area but one of the first thing our vets does with a slow calf is a shot of BOSE. It doesn't lways do anything but it's surprising how oftem it does. We ha n early calf a couple of years ago that when we tried to get it to stnd it;s legs curled under. Tubed it and gave it a shot of bose, 5 mionutes later the little turd kicked me i the shins a wabbled off after it's mother.By that you would never have known that everything easn't normal other then it only weighed 45 popunds

 

[regolith]

I've never seen what is described as 'dummy calf' either - and yet this year I'm in a known selenium deficient area and last year when I bought Herefordx calves from a neighbour I found that they were treating all their calves with selenium.
Maybe it's just luck.

The one farm where I was regularly tubing calves was about fourteen years ago - I learned that any calf left longer than six hours that hadn't suckled had lost the suckling instinct and needed tubed - and from there it was often a three or four day struggle to get it to drink milk without tubing.
I've rarely used the tube since - only in severe scours, everything else sucks as soon as it's hungry enough. But I've got less patience the older I get and will sometimes tube one that refuses. Maybe two or three calves last calving, just too busy and impatient to spend the time with them, too worried to let them get hungry.

 

[AngusLimoX]

Always have the Bose and injectable ADE here at calving, haven't used it the last 2 years, but I am calving later now. That doesn't mean I won't need it this year, but I make sure the mineral feeders are always full.

Sometimes they may be too weak or feeling too punk to want to suck, and that is when they need it the most, so I don't mess around, they get good colostrum/replacer.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We don't wait to SEE if a calf NEEDS it. They all get BoSe & A&D shortly after birth.
I have visited with several breeders that never fed mineral with SE or gave shots & said they never had a problem --- then all of a sudden, they were losing calves left & right & vet said it was SE deficiency. It is a very strange thing. If you buy in feed from other areas, it may contain enough SE. But, if your cattle eat only feed grown on your property, they can't get it from their diet (if you are in a deficient area - which is almost all of the USA according to those articles!).

 

[SRBeef]

Jeanne,the Wisconsin link is especially useful to me because that describes our soils accurately: "highly variable". Shortages of trace minerals I think can be the source of a number of problems. This is why I feel so strong about the Mineralyx barrels. As expensive as they are "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" as they say. Here is their ingredient list:

Crude Protein, min ............................................................6.0%
Crude Fat, min ....................................................................3.0%
Crude Fiber, max ...............................................................2.0%
Calcium (Ca), min .............................................................3.5%
Calcium (Ca), max ............................................................4.5%
Phosphorus (P), min ..........................................................4.0%
Salt (NaCl), .......................................................... None Added
Potassium (K), min ............................................................2.5%
Magnesium (Mg), min ......................................................3.0%
Cobalt (Co), min ..............................................................5 ppm
Copper (Cu), min ........................................................ 500 ppm
Iodine (I), min ................................................................25 ppm
Manganese (Mn), min .............................................2,000 ppm
Selenium (Se), min ...................................................... 6.6 ppm
Zinc (Zn), min ..........................................................1,500 ppm
Vitamin A, min ..................................................100,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D, min .................................................... 10,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E, min ..........................................................100 IU/lb

6.6 ppm is not much but evidently it's enough. I am not around to give shots as you do at calving time. This barrel seems to work - and they consume it. Jim

 

[AngusLimoX]

We don't wait to SEE if a calf NEEDS it. They all get BoSe & A&D shortly after birth.

That is very good for pampered show cattle. Job well done. Keep breeding it in.

 

[randiliana]

We don't wait to SEE if a calf NEEDS it. They all get BoSe & A&D shortly after birth.

We simply feed a good all purpose mineral that includes selenium. It is easier than giving shots to everyone and covers all the bases, both with the cow and the calf. But we keep Sel-E on hand to treat the odd calf that seems weak. Some cows just don't seem to eat the mineral, or their needs are higher.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We don't wait to SEE if a calf NEEDS it. They all get BoSe & A&D shortly after birth.

That is very good for pampered show cattle. Job well done. Keep breeding it in.

Some of you need to get off "your high horse". Just because I show 5 head a year, does not make my herd a pampered show cattle herd. My cattle are treated just like any commercial herd. We have over 60 head of mama cows. They are not "pampered". If you call feeding quality hay in the winter & calving indoors when calves would die in a heartbeat in our severe damp cold outsde, & a great health program is being pampered - then, yes, guess in your mind my herd is pampered.
I do whatever is NECESSARY for healthy cows & calves - as cheaply as possible. I follow Cornell Univ & Vet recommended health programs. We were fortunate enough to be part of a research on SE. A sampling of our cattle were blood tested, SE level in mineral was adjusted, more blood work, more adjstment, til we are at the level of 118 PPM regular SE & 55 PPM Organic SE. Noone out here that has an ounce of a herd health program would think of having calves without giving SE shots at birth. Don't know of one vet that would not recommend it.
You want to compare your costs per cow/year? Ours was $471 - even Caustic has that kind of costs. And that's ALL expenses claimed on Income Tax except depreciation.
Like I said - get off your high horse. What makes you so perfect to be so judgemental? Poke your stick somewhere else - --- in your eye maybe.