Buying and reselling holstien bull calves

[MF135]

.....Both of these calves have too much forward tilt and are both too straight in the leg .Both typical in holsteins calves I see......

There is no way that you can tell if the calves have "to much forward tilt" because of the camera angle. It was taken looking down at the calves and you do not have a side profile.

I would like to know how you determined that they are "too straight in the leg" and what does that mean? Front legs? Rear legs?

Apparently you have not been around many dairy cattle.

You're tellin me,from this picture, you can't tell the calfs pins are considerably lower than her hips? What I do like is her long bone pattern and balance. Dairyness, to me, just refers to strong feminine qualities and being clean cut. The calf stand pretty narrow to me. Too straight in the leg means she has straight hind legs or 'post legs'. I can't see if the pic, but she looks pretty straight in the pastern too. I can tell the difference in the ears, but I don't see many distinguishing breed characteristics. Pink nose, black and white... Im not sure what the cross would be to be able to retain that pink nose?

 

[hillsdown]

.....Both of these calves have too much forward tilt and are both too straight in the leg .Both typical in holsteins calves I see......

There is no way that you can tell if the calves have "to much forward tilt" because of the camera angle. It was taken looking down at the calves and you do not have a side profile.

I would like to know how you determined that they are "too straight in the leg" and what does that mean? Front legs? Rear legs?

Apparently you have not been around many dairy cattle.

You're tellin me,from this picture, you can't tell the calfs pins are considerably lower than her hips? What I do like is her long bone pattern and balance. Dairyness, to me, just refers to strong feminine qualities and being clean cut. The calf stand pretty narrow to me. Too straight in the leg means she has straight hind legs or 'post legs'. I can't see if the pic, but she looks pretty straight in the pastern too. I can tell the difference in the ears, but I don't see many distinguishing breed characteristics. Pink nose, black and white... Im not sure what the cross would be to be able to retain that pink nose?

The hind legs are not posty at all, you need to look again .. The fact that she is black and white patterned means nothing as I have a beautiful daughter out of an EX3 that is mostly blk except for her belly and her socks. I also just sold my Astre daughter who was an EX2 and she was predominantly blk .We had a few red and whites at the dairy as well, and liked to breed to a red factor AI sire quite a bit.. Our pride and joy was a 2 yr old Rudolf daughter that had red twin heifers..

 

[chippie]

You're tellin me,from this picture, you can't tell the calfs pins are considerably lower than her hips? What I do like is her long bone pattern and balance. Dairyness, to me, just refers to strong feminine qualities and being clean cut. The calf stand pretty narrow to me. Too straight in the leg means she has straight hind legs or 'post legs'. I can't see if the pic, but she looks pretty straight in the pastern too. I can tell the difference in the ears, but I don't see many distinguishing breed characteristics. Pink nose, black and white... Im not sure what the cross would be to be able to retain that pink nose?

The hind legs are not posty at all, you need to look again .. The fact that she is black and white patterned means nothing as I have a beautiful daughter out of an EX3 that is mostly blk except for her belly and her socks. I also just sold my Astre daughter who was an EX2 and she was predominantly blk .We had a few red and whites at the dairy as well, and liked to breed to a red factor AI sire quite a bit.. Our pride and joy was a 2 yr old Rudolf daughter that had red twin heifers..

hillsdown,
You don't need to defend your heifer. It's obvious MF135 is ignorant.

The

is getting deeper and deeper.

 

[djinwa]

Originally, this thread was about feeding holstein calves. Then it became the relative efficiency between beef and dairy calves, at which I posted a photo comparing the two. At which it was said the one calf was not holstein. Whether it's 100% holstein doesn't matter - it's more holstein than the calf it is raised with.

Now everyone is arguing about which holstein is better.

By the way, I was reading the thread called, "Cattle". There's an options guy that sounds just like longtimelurker in the way he argues and drives people crazy. Then it is longtimelurker that resurrected the thread.

Then if you look up other posts by options, same pattern of driving people crazy. Guess I got sucked into it.

 

[MF135]

Originally, this thread was about feeding holstein calves. Then it became the relative efficiency between beef and dairy calves, at which I posted a photo comparing the two. At which it was said the one calf was not holstein. Whether it's 100% holstein doesn't matter - it's more holstein than the calf it is raised with.Now everyone is arguing about which holstein is better.

By the way, I was reading the thread called, "Cattle". There's an options guy that sounds just like longtimelurker in the way he argues and drives people crazy. Then it is longtimelurker that resurrected the thread.

Then if you look up other posts by options, same pattern of driving people crazy. Guess I got sucked into it.

haha what a coincidence, me too. I just hate seeing new people to the cattle industry be misinformed by people that are partial towards one breed. There are numerous studies about breed efficiencies out there. There is a hierarchy amonst breeds as far as beef production goes. Let em talk about the Holsteins all they want. It it weren't for their milking abilities, the breed wouldn't even be around. To claim they can compete with breeds that have been selectively bred for beef is just absurd.

 

[longtimelurker]

Originally, this thread was about feeding holstein calves. Then it became the relative efficiency between beef and dairy calves, at which I posted a photo comparing the two. At which it was said the one calf was not holstein. Whether it's 100% holstein doesn't matter - it's more holstein than the calf it is raised with.

Now everyone is arguing about which holstein is better.

By the way, I was reading the thread called, "Cattle". There's an options guy that sounds just like longtimelurker in the way he argues and drives people crazy. Then it is longtimelurker that resurrected the thread.

Then if you look up other posts by options, same pattern of driving people crazy. Guess I got sucked into it.

Your comparison has no merit. You have two completly different breeds who need 2 completly different diets. I would never run a comparison between breeds in the feedlot and handicap one breed thru diet, just so I can see the results I want to. Why do you?

 

[TexasBred]

Originally, this thread was about feeding holstein calves. Then it became the relative efficiency between beef and dairy calves, at which I posted a photo comparing the two. At which it was said the one calf was not holstein. Whether it's 100% holstein doesn't matter - it's more holstein than the calf it is raised with.Now everyone is arguing about which holstein is better.

By the way, I was reading the thread called, "Cattle". There's an options guy that sounds just like longtimelurker in the way he argues and drives people crazy. Then it is longtimelurker that resurrected the thread.

Then if you look up other posts by options, same pattern of driving people crazy. Guess I got sucked into it.

haha what a coincidence, me too. I just hate seeing new people to the cattle industry be misinformed by people that are partial towards one breed. There are numerous studies about breed efficiencies out there. There is a hierarchy amonst breeds as far as beef production goes. Let em talk about the Holsteins all they want. It it weren't for their milking abilities, the breed wouldn't even be around. To claim they can compete with breeds that have been selectively bred for beef is just absurd.

Complete idiocy resurrected once again. A shame meat isn't purchased with the breed stamped on it. You'd be amazed how much holstein you've eaten in your lifetime and didn't even know it.

 

[chippie]

Originally, this thread was about feeding holstein calves. Then it became the relative efficiency between beef and dairy calves, at which I posted a photo comparing the two. At which it was said the one calf was not holstein. Whether it's 100% holstein doesn't matter - it's more holstein than the calf it is raised with.

Now everyone is arguing about which holstein is better.

By the way, I was reading the thread called, "Cattle". There's an options guy that sounds just like longtimelurker in the way he argues and drives people crazy. Then it is longtimelurker that resurrected the thread.

Then if you look up other posts by options, same pattern of driving people crazy. Guess I got sucked into it.

Everyone is not arguing about which Holstein is better. Questions were asked about the characteristics of your calf that indicated that it was a mixed breed Holstein. And the differences were shown.

MF135 took it upon himself to criticize Hillsdown's heifer and I guess your calf.

 

[novaman]

For all we know, the black calf in that picture has some Holstein in his background too. At any rate, Holsteins grown for beef is a big part of the beef industry. Awhile back I remember somebody complaining that all the cull Holsteins were driving down the cattle prices. If Holsteins were worth nothing more than milk producers, why would there be such complaints? As TB said, Holstein beef is everywhere and whether you want to admit it or not, it is profitable to raise and sell Holsteins for the sole purpose of beef production. It always amazes me how good of an eye some people have. By looking at one picture from a bad angle they could write a book about what's right and wrong about an animal. Guess I've got a lot to learn :roll:

 

[MF135]

haha what a coincidence, me too. I just hate seeing new people to the cattle industry be misinformed by people that are partial towards one breed. There are numerous studies about breed efficiencies out there. There is a hierarchy amonst breeds as far as beef production goes. Let em talk about the Holsteins all they want. It it weren't for their milking abilities, the breed wouldn't even be around. To claim they can compete with breeds that have been selectively bred for beef is just absurd.

Complete idiocy resurrected once again. A shame meat isn't purchased with the breed stamped on it. You'd be amazed how much holstein you've eaten in your lifetime and didn't even know it.

I've never once questioned the quality of beef produced from a holstein. I'm sure I have eaten plenty of it in my life. The first calf I slaughtered was a 1/2 holstein 1/2 angus but had the print of a holstein. I knew I'd get slammed sendin it to the sale barn so to the butcher he went. Holsteins do drive down the beef prices because when you can get 3-4 for the price of one beef calf, then ofcourse your in a position to see profit. For me, purchasing bottle calves, the holstein calf's purchase cost would have to be 1/4 the price of the beef calf for me to be indifferent.

I have a couple questions:

If holsteins require a higher energy ration, how does this not cost more $ per day to feed than an animal that requires a lower energy ration?

How many more days does it take a Holstein to reach X weight than it does a beef breed(of comparable frame)?

It just seems to me that every process, after the initial calf purchase, cost more when raising holstein calves. If this is not true, I would like to see how? and w/o the flamming trolls.

Thank you

 

[novaman]

Holsteins do drive down the beef prices because when you can get 3-4 for the price of one beef calf, then ofcourse your in a position to see profit. For me, purchasing bottle calves, the holstein calf's purchase cost would have to be 1/4 the price of the beef calf for me to be indifferent.

Do you see what I put in bold? If you can buy 3-4 Holsteins per beef and require Holsteins to be 25% the price of a beef animal you have just told us that it would be a wash. Whoops!

I have a couple questions:

If holsteins require a higher energy ration, how does this not cost more $ per day to feed than an animal that requires a lower energy ration?

How many more days does it take a Holstein to reach X weight than it does a beef breed(of comparable frame)?

It just seems to me that every process, after the initial calf purchase, cost more when raising holstein calves. If this is not true, I would like to see how? and w/o the flamming trolls.

Thank you

I can put weight on a Holstein the same as a beef calf. You are right after the initial purchase it may cost more but you have such a difference in the purchase price that you can spend more $ per day and still come out with similar end figures.

 

[MF135]

MF135 took it upon himself to criticize Hillsdown's heifer and I guess your calf.

No, no Hillsdowns's calf was shown for the purpose of criticizing djinwa's calf. Hillsdowns said, "now this is a REAL holstein". If that isn't a knock on djinwa's calf then i dunno what is.

I, on the other hand, said how good hillsdowns calf looked. Maybe in your dairy, your cows aren't standing in a concrete milking ring for long. In an operation where they are, cows that are too straight in the leg do have problems. severe toe and hip problems.

 

[MF135]

Holsteins do drive down the beef prices because when you can get 3-4 for the price of one beef calf, then ofcourse your in a position to see profit. For me, purchasing bottle calves, the holstein calf's purchase cost would have to be 1/4 the price of the beef calf for me to be indifferent.

Do you see what I put in bold? If you can buy 3-4 Holsteins per beef and require Holsteins to be 25% the price of a beef animal you have just told us that it would be a wash. Whoops!

I can put weight on a Holstein the same as a beef calf. You are right after the initial purchase it may cost more but you have such a difference in the purchase price that you can spend more $ per day and still come out with similar end figures.

do you know what indifferent means? indifferent = wash

 

[novaman]

Holsteins do drive down the beef prices because when you can get 3-4 for the price of one beef calf, then ofcourse your in a position to see profit. For me, purchasing bottle calves, the holstein calf's purchase cost would have to be 1/4 the price of the beef calf for me to be indifferent.

Do you see what I put in bold? If you can buy 3-4 Holsteins per beef and require Holsteins to be 25% the price of a beef animal you have just told us that it would be a wash. Whoops!

I can put weight on a Holstein the same as a beef calf. You are right after the initial purchase it may cost more but you have such a difference in the purchase price that you can spend more $ per day and still come out with similar end figures.

do you know what indifferent means? indifferent = wash

I know what indifferent means. I am pointing out that you are admitting there is no difference from Holstein to beef.

 

[longtimelurker]

I have a couple questions:

If holsteins require a higher energy ration, how does this not cost more $ per day to feed than an animal that requires a lower energy ration?

Feedstuff Energy does not have a worldwide set price per MCAL

How many more days does it take a Holstein to reach X weight than it does a beef breed(of comparable frame)?

Days on feed is a useless figure as you will be starting at a lighter weight with a lower investment. Money saved on calf price will outweight feed price.

 

[hillsdown]

MF135 took it upon himself to criticize Hillsdown's heifer and I guess your calf.

No, no Hillsdowns's calf was shown for the purpose of criticizing djinwa's calf. Hillsdowns said, "now this is a REAL holstein". If that isn't a knock on djinwa's calf then i dunno what is.

I, on the other hand, said how good hillsdowns calf looked. Maybe in your dairy, your cows aren't standing in a concrete milking ring for long. In an operation where they are, cows that are too straight in the leg do have problems. severe toe and hip problems.

MF she is a real Holstein not a cross breed or composite, and dijinwa posted that pic to put down all Holsteins and make it look like they are all poor doers and look like crap, when in fact it isn't even a real Holstein.. Huge difference, if you are going to knock a breed you had at least better come in with the facts. I also can post pics of pot bellied crappy looking "beef" cattle as well, does that mean that all beef is crappy..

I just hate seeing new people to the cattle industry be misinformed by people that are partial towards one breed

.

No one is being partial to a specific breed we were asked a question and responded with first hand knowledge and years of experience. I am also a beef seedstock producer and my goal every year is to produce the best cattle possible ;but to knock a breed because you do not know their merits or to go as far as saying if they weren't being milked they wouldn't exist is completely absurd. I will give that idiotic comment to your young age and maturity and not against your character , I am sure there are a few other little tidbits in this thread that you would like to edit..

Personally, I will listen to LTL as he makes his living from this and does very well. BTW our Easter dinner with the family (which they never turn down when I offer to host) will be Holstein fillet Mignon as the main course ..

Happy Easter everyone.. :wave:

 

[MF135]

I have a couple questions:

If holsteins require a higher energy ration, how does this not cost more $ per day to feed than an animal that requires a lower energy ration?

Feedstuff Energy does not have a worldwide set price per MCAL

How many more days does it take a Holstein to reach X weight than it does a beef breed(of comparable frame)?

Days on feed is a useless figure as you will be starting at a lighter weight with a lower investment. Money saved on calf price will outweight feed price.

Here let me help you out w/ a basic financial concept: Net Present Value- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_present_value Try to grasp the "discount rate" concept.

 

[iowafarmer]

Well I just got done wading through this whole thread. Here is my input.
Two persons that I won't mention should stop bickering like little children and use reason and logic rather than a he!! of a lot of bullsh!t!!! And the others that have not helped the matter by getting involved should know better! Now both sides had some true statements but both sides had a he!! of a lot more bullsh!t than truth. And rather than being level headed adults they sat around arguing in circles rather than reading the full post and responding as full grown mature adults. Now people come on here that are new, or don't post, or aren't involved in the industry and if they read this post they will look at the industry and they will see people that act like unprofessional children. If I saw this and didn't know any better I would leave with a very biased view of our industry. It's no wonder PETA and other organizations like them are ripping our industry apart because we can't even act like professional, civilized adults. So start acting like professional mature adults so that you don't make yourself look like a total jack@ss and you don't make our industry look like a bunch of uneducated idiots while giving our industry a horrible reputation.
There were a lot of posts where people only thought an inch, talked a yard, and should have been moved by my foot!!!
JMO on this whole post. Take it as what you will.

 

[longtimelurker]

I have a couple questions:

If holsteins require a higher energy ration, how does this not cost more $ per day to feed than an animal that requires a lower energy ration?

Feedstuff Energy does not have a worldwide set price per MCAL

How many more days does it take a Holstein to reach X weight than it does a beef breed(of comparable frame)?

Days on feed is a useless figure as you will be starting at a lighter weight with a lower investment. Money saved on calf price will outweight feed price.

Here let me help you out w/ a basic financial concept: Net Present Value- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_present_value Try to grasp the "discount rate" concept.

Well hopefully you will have success in the financial sector because you will fail in the cattle sector. You do understand a feedlot makes money on weight gain, everyday cattle are on feed they gained weight. The more days on feed the more I profit. If a yard sits empty I don't profit.

I don't expect you to understand this because you have not been able to understand anything thus far.

 

[longtimelurker]

Well I just got done wading through this whole thread. Here is my input.
Two persons that I won't mention should stop bickering like little children and use reason and logic rather than a he!! of a lot of bullsh!t!!! And the others that have not helped the matter by getting involved should know better! Now both sides had some true statements but both sides had a he!! of a lot more bullsh!t than truth. And rather than being level headed adults they sat around arguing in circles rather than reading the full post and responding as full grown mature adults. Now people come on here that are new, or don't post, or aren't involved in the industry and if they read this post they will look at the industry and they will see people that act like unprofessional children. If I saw this and didn't know any better I would leave with a very biased view of our industry. It's no wonder PETA and other organizations like them are ripping our industry apart because we can't even act like professional, civilized adults. So start acting like professional mature adults so that you don't make yourself look like a total jack@ss and you don't make our industry look like a bunch of uneducated idiots while giving our industry a horrible reputation.
There were a lot of posts where people only thought an inch, talked a yard, and should have been moved by my foot!!!
JMO on this whole post. Take it as what you will.

I hope the profanity laced post helped to make you feel better. Cosidering the language and the better than thou attitude, the post seems to be almost a self descriptive.