Bull Tests

[Willow Springs]

I really think that the bull "tests" are a thing of the past. Cattleland in Strathmore used to run the largest one in Canada, testing thousands of bulls. I believe they have about 4-500 in this year; I don't think it is a growth business. Tests used to work when herds were small and guys didn't want to worry about having an extra pen for 5 -10 bulls. Now bulls are developed on farm where the sellers can interact directly with their bull customers. Herds are larger now and the larger herds usually have equipment to match which needs to be paid for. They would rather use your yardage charge to pay themselves and to make payments on their own machinery. EPD's have also decreased the need to "test" your bulls against other breeders of growth. The test system was flawed anyway; bringing in calves at 200-240 days, warming up for 28 and then a 112-140 day test?? The test days are only half of what the pre-test days were, so really what was the point? Generally the bulls that came off tougher pastures, etc gained the best on test.

I think that if you go ahead with this, plan on having a background/finishing feedlot and "developing" some bulls as well. I do know some purebred guys that feed in custom lots, but they are more often in the south where they run cows more on banked pasture than silage and don't have the infrastructure. So maybe being where you are you could source from those breeders?

 

[angus9259]

Dad used to manage a bull test station up here for 12 years and I believe there are only 2 left now, Douglas in Manitoba and Lakeland College in Alberta. For the last few years we have been talking back and forth about getting back into the bull test business because cattle feeding isnt paying and as livestock dealers we dont run enough head through our place to keep the pens full, so why not start testing bulls again. But on a bigger scale. The test station he used to run used to test 1000 bulls, some people had 5, some had 50, and they had a one day sale with 10+ breeds sometimes. After we left it lasted 5 or 6 more years and then went belly up, he thinks because more and more breeders have their own sales now. So I got thinking, why not run a test and test the guys whole offering of bulls, make up his sale catalogue and have his sale at our yard instead of having a one day sale with 50 different breeds, have sales for each breeder maybe and for the smaller guys a multibreed sale. Two things my dad and mom agree that they are good at are buying cattle and testing bulls, and it was a good lifestyle. We have our own feedlot now and could test 14 pens of 50 and 5 pens of 15-20 and if it worked expand as we need space. Plus, the old Test Station is a mile down the highway and has been for sale for the last 6 years.

My question is, do you Canadian guys or even you guys south of the border think that Bull Test Stations are worth having around anymore? I know there are a few in the US still, but like I said, only two that I remember up here. And do you think many breeders would be interested in having their whole offering on a bull test?

If I were you, I think I would lean more to a grass-fed bull test. NR has experience running one, so maybe he will chime in.

It is surprising that Douglas hasn't folded these last few years. Numbers on feed is up and down like a yo-yo each year. Last time I stopped in was '03 I think. They had met a bit of the shortfall on the bulls by feeding more heifers for consignors.

One of the few advantages I see in the bull tests is the ability to go one sale day and have a large selection of bulls to choose from different breeds. I never liked how they ran the bull test at Douglas. Shipping fever and pneumonia became a big problem. Not sure if it still is. :cowboy:

forage based bull test . . . love it

 

[lakading]

if you retain ownership all the way through the feedlot, it might be useful. if you sell before they start eating at the feedlot, a bull test will have little to do with your profitability.

So you aren't concerned about the profitability of those who buy your calves? Do you suppose buyers will pay a premium for your feeders if they don't perform in the yard?

 

[Aero]

if you retain ownership all the way through the feedlot, it might be useful. if you sell before they start eating at the feedlot, a bull test will have little to do with your profitability.

So you aren't concerned about the profitability of those who buy your calves? Do you suppose buyers will pay a premium for your feeders if they don't perform in the yard?

i am concerned about big picture profitability, not chasing a penny premium that i am 50-50 to get. focus on areas that make a difference in profitability instead the traits that make you feel good. it's much more effective to avoid discounts than chase premiums.

how many producers sell to the same buyer every year? a small percentage.

growth is pretty low on the importance list to me. it can have a big impact on gross income, but hardly ever will it have a big, positive impact on profitability.

 

[novatech]

i am concerned about big picture profitability, not chasing a penny premium that i am 50-50 to get. focus on areas that make a difference in profitability instead the traits that make you feel good. it's much more effective to avoid discounts than chase premiums.
If you are avoiding the discount doesn,t that bring you toward the premium? If all you want to do is raise some cows and sell at the sale barn then I agree.

how many producers sell to the same buyer every year? a small percentage.
Those that invest and raise premium cattle and market them as such will have return buyers.

growth is pretty low on the importance list to me. it can have a big impact on gross income, but hardly ever will it have a big, positive impact on profitability.
This is true if you do not market what you have. It's like buying a brand new hybrid car and leaving it parked in the garage.

My opinion is that feed tests serve a vital function. Weight gain and feed lot efficiency are imperative for the beef industries survival. The primary reason we raise cattle is to provide the feedlot industry with a product that they can in turn produce a product for the final consumer. If they cannot make it we do not make it.
Weight gain and feed efficiency in a feedlot will give you the same efficiency on the pasture. I have heard many statements contrary to this statement but I have never seen any proof or research to show it is incorrect. If you have any please show me and I will stand corrected.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Just a lifetime of experience runnin grass cattle and finishing our own cattle-lots of times you'll see an animal that didn't do great on pasture explode on feed-it's compensatory gain I imagine. If you put your selection pressure on feedlot characteristics your going to end iup with a group of cows that are pretty spendy to keep.if all things are equal on two bulls I'll use carcass data to break the tie but in the Angus breed most bulls we've used have thrown pretty good cattle feedlot wise. The yield grade on the steers could be better but the gris has changed so there is no real premium on Y3 AAA's so we'll probably just ship them sooner.

 

[novatech]

Just a lifetime of experience runnin grass cattle and finishing our own cattle-lots of times you'll see an animal that didn't do great on pasture explode on feed-it's compensatory gain I imagine. If you put your selection pressure on feedlot characteristics your going to end iup with a group of cows that are pretty spendy to keep.if all things are equal on two bulls I'll use carcass data to break the tie but in the Angus breed most bulls we've used have thrown pretty good cattle feedlot wise. The yield grade on the steers could be better but the gris has changed so there is no real premium on Y3 AAA's so we'll probably just ship them sooner.

When I came on these boards I had 50 some odd years of experience on and off with cattle. I found out what I thought I knew I really did not know. As per my signature.
What experience has taught me is experience does not mean squat if the knowledge is not there to support it. With cattle knowledge is based on generalities. Experience is what works for you in your herd in your environment.
I have heard a lot about cattle that can make it on grass alone. Sorry but to me that is a statement without merit. There are a lot of differences in grass. On one hand you have lush pastures of legumes and some other planted forage giving the cattle the squirts. Then on the other hand you have West Texas or other areas that have nothing but sparse natives. So who gets the fame to grass fed cattle? What I think you may be seeing is some people that do not cull properly for hard keepers, or simply are overstocked and have to supplement. People that still creep feed, I think, are doing it out of habit of days past. Feed was once cheap. I'm not from your neck of the woods but down here every cow calf producer raises their cattle on grass. I do not know a soul that runs a cow calf operation in a feed lot. ( there a few city folks that run about 2 cows per acre that have to supplement but I'm speaking of trying to make a profit) So given that wouldn't their bull calves in a feed lot test be just as good in a pasture?
Now lets go to the other end. If a man raises bulls from hard keepers (those cattle that cannot make it on grass pasture) and puts them in a feed lot weight gain test that those bulls will do equally as well as easy fleshing cattle? I would say they may. But most people that spent the money for feed lot tests have also done the proper culling within their herds to eliminate those genetics from their cattle.
Lets add one more scenario. A man in X land raises his cattle on lush pasture year round. He claims to have cattle that make it on grass. Well he is telling the truth. No feed lot test is done. Some guy buys him and puts him on native pasture where the forage quality is very low. Is the bull going to make it? Would feedlot gain and efficiency tests help in making comparisons? Maybe not because this may have more to do with type. Would grass fed tests work? Maybe not, because doesn,t it depend on the grass the test is being performed on and the grass the bull will be put on after the test.

 

[MO_cows]

All the other issues aside, seems like a bull test that is well run would be a good place to buy a bull because the testing and the numbers come from an independent, neutral 3d party. Also you could take a lot of your time and run a lot of miles going around looking at bulls at individual producers, especially in the many breeds where you can't throw a rock and hit one like with Angus. The test hopefully brings together bulls from a lot of different producers for your convenience in comparison shopping. Ideally, in one day you could compare bulls of different breeds and from different producers within breeds and have a good selection.

 

[Aero]

a standard feedlot test will only show you how that individual performed in an environment that is completely the opposite of what you have at home.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Well sunshine I think experience is a preety good way to gain knowledge. I'll bet a bull that does good on a grass test will do better on any forage compared to a bull produced from a children of the corn scenarioo for several generations.

 

[Frankie]

a standard feedlot test will only show you how that individual performed in an environment that is completely the opposite of what you have at home.

It will also give you an idea how his calves will perform in the feedlot. There are lots of buyers these days that are interested in that information.

 

[Beef Man]

We were involved with one of the early bull tests in the early 60's. That was leo Mcdonnels test east of billings and at that time it was still " the days of performance testing". Everyone just had to find out how their cattle measured up. It also was a great way to sell bulls. That is how D4 got famous,Ferry Carpenter was acknowlegded,Chris Jackobson hit his high and many others such as the Traveller angus bull was discovered. Nothing wrong with abull test if it is run fair and square but the days of my bull outgaining your bull are over and gone. The many stations that were involved have surved their purpose. Like the expierment station at Ft. Keough,who really set out to provethat cattle could be bred to gain,genectically,they have indeed done that and more. I don'et see any return to just plain gain as there is so many things to consider that are importent and we do know that every breed has such complete records and indepth volume of numbers to use ,that even if your bull does outgain otherson a 140 test. What does that mean anymore? I live in East Mt. and a few breeders,inthe early 60's started a IPR only bull sale. It was a very successfull sale and the well informed commercial cowmen were very happy to support it. At that time there were many other purebred producers that thought that was almost a joke and one even told me that if he had to performance test and keep such records he would quit and he did.[incedentily one of his bulls shows up in the D4 pedigree] The point I'm trying to make we have come a long way and with ????? many breeds and composites of beef cattle today,you can find anything you want and 140 days will not be much of a factor anymore.

 

[westman]

Bizin,
I am a smaller Purebred breeder, 50 head. I have only been in the purebred business for 5 years, so I do not claim to know much, but something I do know is that there are alot of smaller breeders that find it a pain to develop there own bulls. I am not a huge fan of the test stations, because there is a whole lot more to breeding beef then lbs/day. Things like Carcass merit, phenotype and soundness should also play a role. Also bulls selected for maternal traits often will not compete as well against the performance driven bulls. What I would like to see, and if cost effective would utilize, is a development station that would not focus on max lbs/day but rather a solid growth and development program. I would love to send my 6-8 bulls away for the winter and have them come back ready for sale. I think alot of guys have there own opinions on what works best for marketing their bulls, and giving them the option would good. Lastly I think a weel balanced grower ration would seperate the men from the boys as far as feed effeciency and gain, over a self feeder and all the hay they can tramp in to the manure!