Bull selection opinions

[R. John Johnson]

This is my first post here, and might be kinda long. First some background. My herd is mostly char and char cross cows. Lots of white and light tan. When I sold this fall at our local auction mart the buyers were picking white calves out of the bunches. Talked to the buyer later and he told me his orders specifically stated no whites. The feed lots feel these calves take more feed and time to finish.

Here in Manitoba we have almost no feedlot or slaughter capacity. Calves go west to Alberta, South to the US, or East to Ontario and Quebec. Ontario and Quebec historically bought the kind of calves I raise. Oddly enough, up until about 10 years ago there was a price DISCOUNT for black calves at our auction mart. Now they are actually bringing a premium.

I am leery of putting a black bull in, because the grey calves can also be heavily discounted here. Just depends on the orders the buyers have that day. I feel that I have to use red bulls to get tan and red calves. After I get enough red cows in my herd I can switch to black or go back to Charolais as a terminal sire.

My three choices are Red Angus, Fleckvieh or Limosine. Red Angus bulls up here have been bred for heifer bulls so they tend to be smaller framed and lack muscle. I would have to find one with a larger frame and more "meat". Don't know much about Fleckveih, but I have to find one that would have solid red and not have that huge frame that a Semmintal might have. My limited experience with Limos are that they are HIGH STRUNG. I don't want that in my herd. It would be Ok for a terminal sire.

Fire away with thoughts and opinions.

John

 

[BRG]

There are several breeders in Canada and across the boarder into the US that are not breeding ONLY for heifer bulls in the Red Angus breed. I for one am not. We breed for muscle, maternal, and performance. Triple S Red Angus, Brylor, & Six Mile are a few that have solid performance bulls. Check out my website and you will see that we have the kind you are looking for as well. http://www.gillredangus.com

I personally would stay away from Limi and Fleck as this would be to much Continental. The Fleck would most likely get way to big crossed with a Char in most cases and the Limi ussually don't convert as well. Red Angus would be your best bet.

 

[phillse]

Suggestion 1.
get a good Simmental with good balance of carcass and maternal traits, preferably a solid red bull (not necessarily a fleck). That will give you continental cow with which to cross British breeds latter. This option is if you wish to keep continental females.

Suggestion 2. Cross your Char cows with a british breed such as Red Angus or Shorthorn to keep females. Once again find a bull of balance carcass and maternal. Solid colored shorthorn preferably. To good Shorthorn breeders in Canada breeding functional cattle are Muridale Farms and Shadybrook farms.

You can then cross these females with a british breed or go back continental. If you go back black on these females a good Black Angus or Black Simmental should work.

Personally, I would opt for one of the breeds in Suggestion 2.

 

[randiliana]

As stated before, I would stay away from the Simmental. Crossing them onto Char cows would likely end up with pretty large framed cattle. But, then, that also depends somewhat on your market.

I would go with Red Angus, or possibly, if you can find it Shorthorn (go with a solid red bull, unless your buyers don't discount roans, like they do here) or Hereford, those tan baldies usually sell quite well. You may have to hunt a bit, to find a good bull, but they are out there.

If you like the limo cross, you would just have to pay close attention to the temprament and temprament EPD's on any bull you like.

Another breed, to consider is Gelbveih, they are quiet, very maternal, and have that added muscle. We have a friend that uses Gelbveih on his Char cows. They sure are nice calves.

As for finding bulls, there will be a lot of bull sales coming up where you can find what you are looking at. A lot of bull sellers offer free, or reduced delivery. We travel to Lloydminster for our bulls, partially because of the delivery, and that is 8 hours from us. There are many options out there.

 

[TEhayandcattle]

Down here in South Texas the market has drastically shifted to white calves the black are seemingly docked about a dime and we run red beefmaster which are further docked at market especially if roan or paint. It kind of sounds like you favor your Chuckies about as much as I do my beefmasters my suggestion would be to upgrade your Charolais bulls if you aren't 100% pleased with what you are putting on the ground. The goofballs setting the trends will be back to white by the time you are full force on red anyway, in the meantime, you are already using the internet so use it as a tool to find buyers looking for white calves like yours or target special sales where you can consign in advance and they can publicize or market for you. If you really want to mix things up, but start out slow, I can send you a white beefmaster bull so you can have the shorthorn and longear all in one that way you won't have to decide on English or Continental tony at tehayandcattle.com

 

[rkaiser]

Posted a picture of a bull you might consider on the "Picture of your herd bull" thread.

A good friend and pubred charolais breeder used this bulls papa on some purebred cows and sold some hybrid Char/ Welsh Black (red) bulls. Lots of thickness - less frame and lots of hair.

Randy

 

[Sage]

I would definatly go for the Red Angus, but thats a given. If you look into the Kindle line of Red Angus, I believe it originated in Canada, I think you might find the musle and growth your looking for.

 

[CowpokeJ]

Red angus, shorthorn, hereford in that order.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

There are tons of super muscled Red Angus bulls in the country. I see better muscled Red A than I see Angus.
If you wanted to keep the continental in your cattle, I would use a good solid Red Simmental (not a leggy Fleck). The modern Simmie is very marketable.
Rkaiser posted a super Red - Welsh Black bull. He has super thick, stout bulls.
Lots of options.

 

[turning grass into beef]

In my opinion you can find good, thick, stout, meaty bulls in almost any beef breed here in Canada. Don't judge a particular breed based on "the average". Talk to the breeders you are considering buying from. Ask them how they manage their cattle, what their goals are, and how they are trying to achieve those goals. Find breeders that manage their cattle like you manage yours (if a breeders cows require grain in order to maintain their condition and you make your cows go without grain, then don't buy bulls from him). You should be able to find breeders that run their cattle like you run yours, no matter what color you decide to go with. Yes it is true that color plays a part in the sale price of your calves but quality is more important. Also if you retain your heifer calves for breeding then quality is extremely important

 

[R.N.Reed]

I would base your next bull purchase on how long you think 4.00 corn and a wide choice select spread will be factors in the market place.

 

[rkaiser]

Good points concering the grain thing guys. And yes the Stout red Welsh Black bull had some grain in him for the photo.

The bulls that we are offering for sale this year have none. We have been running our stock the way that "turning grass into beef" suggests for a long time now. Calve from mid April to mid June and just weaned our calves up here in the Great White north. Our calves have seen nothing but hay over their first winter for a few years now and our coming two year old sale bulls are on a ration consisting of cereal silage, hay and micro nutrient supplement. (a darn good mineral program). We did not predict the current grain price scenario, but are darn sure prepared for it. We also run a herd of purebred Galloway cattle and treat them the same way. Cattle that work for us and not the other way around.

 

[R. John Johnson]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I've still got lots of research to do. Rkaiser, I really like that red bull you posted the pic of in the other thread. Randiliana, I tried a Gelbveih a few years ago, but was just not happy with the cross. Not enough length and too much leg.

I have been running one Red Angus bull with a slightly higher birth weight, but the results have not been consistent. He was one of those deals where I bought a bull and the breeder kept him until spring. The bull failed his semen test, so I had the breeder select me a bull and bring him out. Here is a pic of his best daughter from the '07 calf crop, taken when the calf was about 6 months old.

For some reason I can't get any pictures to come up. Don't know what I'm doing wrong.

John

 

[dun]

The line within the [img[/img] has to end in jpg or gif to work

 

[R. John Johnson]

Thanks Dun, I'll try again. Here is the heifer.

here are some pics othe calves we sold early this December.

John