Bull Decisions/Advice

[hillbillycwo]

I am sure you guys are tired of my questions but I am looking for the guidance and am getting quite a bit of wise counsel each time I ask. Thanks a bunch!

We currently have the following commercial quality cows or if they were dogs I would say mutts. They are good looking stock and raise good calves. They were bought bred to a low birth weight angus bulls and the calves have been nice and are hitting the ground running. I have an Angus bull with them now that is two years old and he will do until I am retired and home full time. I am looking to increase muscling and milking qualities in the calves as I will start retaining the heifers for replacements. I have had good success out of Simmetal crossed heifers. They have grown great calves weaning them at 500-600 lbs on grass and hay. They were bred back to an angus LBW bull. Our market here really docks you unless you are selling black feeders. It is amazing to watch charlois calves go for 95 and angus based calves go for 105-110. It really dictates what color calves you produce. The question is does the simmetal bulls compare well EPD wise with the angus bulls? What are your thoughts on this as a basis for breeding for quality replacements? We are in the fescue belt in central Kentucky. Thanks again for the time you take to respond. Lee

 

[Jake]

As far as producing replacement quality heifers with you wanting to utilize Simmental genetics I would look strongly towards a simangus bull. If your cowherd is "mutty" now there won't be much loss in heterosis through using the cross bull. There are some simangus cattle that come in a very good package.

 

[Angus In Texas]

As with any comparison, you can buy an outstanding Angus bull and a crummy Sim bull or you can buy an outstanding Sim bull and a crummy Angus bull. As long as you find the "right" bull, in my mind breed does not matter. It is all about your goals as a breeder.

I agree with Jake that a SimAngus may be worth looking into. But if you can find the right bull, straightbred on either side, for the money you are wanting to spend then weigh all of your options.

 

[hillbillycwo]

How do those bulls do on heifers tho? Not looking to have several bulls on this herd. There are only 21 cows will get them upto about 30 in the herd when I get my pastures renovated. Plan on using the same breed of bull on both cows and heifers. I really like the low birth weight bulls and the calving ease as I am only a part time farmer. Thoughts?

 

[angie1]

In my opinion, it is as AIT was saying, low birth weight is more BULL specific then BREED specific. I would use a sim bull given your goals. Watch the EBD's on him, and look at him in person, look at the calves that he has on the ground if you can. But I would use a sim. You are going to get brockles often, but since these are replacements you are asking specifically about, then that should not matter. If you have to pull a heifer calf, I would suggest you sell her at weaning. You are wanting replacements that can have a calf unassisted (long term goal), more than you want a bull that promises LBW. Ask if this does not make sense or you want further explanation.

 

[Frankie]

Here's a link to the Across-breed EPD chart. You can compare EPDs of different breeds by using the "adjustment factors" on this table. Don't look at it and say "Angus with a BW of 0 is equal to a Hereford of 2.9." That's not how it works. You ADD the BW EPD (WW, YW, etc) of the bull you're considering buying to the adjustment factor of his breed (2.9 for Herefords, 4.5 for South Devon, etc) and compare the bulls that way.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Pl ... 09News.pdf

 

[smuff76]

Since you don't know the actual make-up of the cows I would probably start with a purebred bull; Sim, Gelb, or Angus. After you get the heard to the size you want it by adding replacements and/or rotating out some of the older cows (probably 3+ years out?) I would then switch bulls. If you start with an Angus for replacements I would then switch to a Continental bull. If you start with a Continental I would switch to an Angus (if you want to stay black).

In the end you will end up with calves that are roughly 50% of the last bull, 25% of the bull you are using to create the replacements and 25% you have no idea because you don't know the breeding of the cows. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is how I would do it.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As stated, calving ease is "more BULL specific then BREED specific." The Simmental breed has a lot of bulls with extremely good CE with great growth & Maternal Milk. If you want to use him on heifers, get a Simmental bull with a CE EPD of around +10.
If you purchase a black PB SImmental bull, you can sell your finished black steers in the CAB program.
I know breeders in Ky, I could give you a name of a sale manager that I truly trust. Just PM me when you're looking.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Thanks to all for the advice. I am definitely leaning towards the Simmy bull right now. Those Limosines are sure pretty though! However, even with the breeders trying to breed out their difficult nature I believe for my circumstances right now the simmies bring what I am looking for in a package that is more manageable and docile. Any bull can be a pain I know but then again any cow can but I have learned to mitigate risk as much as possible so I am taking that step. Lee

 

[Northern Rancher]

Just curious if the cows you have are raising good saleable calves why are you wanting to increase milk and muscle. There's not a thing wrong with staying with what works-all you might do is increase cost of production not necessarily profit.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Yes they do raise good calves now. What I am looking to do does not hurt the herd. I have to buy a new bull anyway so why not buy one that is going to add to my herd if possible? I have always looked to improve what I have and have never been satisfied with just maintaining. If the cost of the bull I am looking for is too high I will stay with the Angus bull for now. But I think I can find the improvements in genetics for the same basic price of the Angus bull. If not then like mentioned before stay with the Angus. we have a low birth weight Angus now that I can always breed heifers to. My brother-in-law and I raise/wean our heifers together in the same pen. He runs and owns the Angus bull and I am looking into alternative breeds to bring a few more "improvements" to our herds. My base cows need a little improvement in the area of muscling. They were bought to get income coming into the farm and I chose them based on their ease to maintain and their gentleness. Due to the fact I am an absentee farmer right now and for the next two years while I finish my Naval Career. They raised good crops as heifers and based on the reputation of the fellow I bought them from they are predicted to have another good to great crop. Currently 4 of the 21 have had babies and they hit the ground around 80 pounds. Three little bulls andthe heifer was about 70 pounds. So I am looking forward to it. The research I am doing looks like the simmetal bull will do better for the replacement heifers than the angus and he will provide steers that will outperform the angus ones at weaning and yearling times. Nothing wrong with the Angus breed and eventually I will be breeding back to one. Lee

 

[pdfangus]

not going to recommend a breed.

but I recomend a purebred. more consistent.

look at lot of bulls and buy the best bull you can afford.

to handle the number you are talking about you will need a two year old bull. My rule of thumb for young bulls is one cow for every month of age. 15 month old bull 15 cows. 18 month old bull 18 cows.

the problem with a rotational crossing system is you are either always dealing with a lot of heifers or your bull won't fit a good part of the cow herd.

don't put so much emphasis on calving ease that you sacrifice growth. you sell pounds across the scale in most markets. too many folks won't look at bulls with bw epds over 1.5 or 2 and leave a lot of growth out of the equation. unless breeding a lot of heifers i would go birth weight epd as high as 4.5 or 5. Just don't want to keep stacking high birth weights. a cow should not have a problem calving to a bull like that. Precalving nutrition and time of year calving are factors in bw as well.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Jim, We put the bull with our heifers at about 15 months of age for the heifers and tey are calving around 1100-1200 pounds. We have been using CE/LBW angus bulls for a long time they have really produced nice calves and good replacements to date. But I am not real impressed with the frame size and muscling. The new bull will be used on the second calf for most right now and I will be using him later on the heifers after retirement when I amhome to watch them better. When I use him on the heifers they will be kept in a smaller field close to the barn so I can calve them in a more controlled enviroment. Bsically I know I am going to be trading off the clving ease for weaning weights. My inquiry is to whether the simmetal bulls have the potential to mitigate the trade off and lesson my risk on the heifers or should I continue to breed the heifers to the CE/LBW angus bulls my brother-in-law has available. Thanks again fo ryour comments and advice. Lee

 

[CSM]

Don't care what breed of bull you choose but you got one thing very wrong. The feeder calf market in central Kentucky for Charolais cross calves is excellent. They are always competitive with black calves and often times higher. Better check the sales reports.

CSM

 

[Northern Rancher]

Enjoy the journey!

 

[Kingfisher]

How do those bulls do on heifers tho? Not looking to have several bulls on this herd. There are only 21 cows will get them upto about 30 in the herd when I get my pastures renovated. Plan on using the same breed of bull on both cows and heifers. I really like the low birth weight bulls and the calving ease as I am only a part time farmer. Thoughts?

Buy a good Simi and you should not have a problem. They can make some good calves with good Angus cows. You have to have good not marginal stock however. Peace.

 

[hillbillycwo]

CSM, I agree Charlois crosses sell good. However, the black calves seem to sell better I do not know why as the philosophy behind it doesn't hold much weight. I have never been able to tell what breed a carcass is after the hide is off and it is just hanging meat. But it is what it is so I will attempt to give my customers what they want. I like the body size and muscling of the charlois but I have not had good luck with the temperaments of them. Pretty yes but they hate me! Love to see them grazing from the truck or from my feild looking into my Uncle's field. LOL. I dread helping him get them up. I have had them get after the four wheeler, truck and us when we work them. Especially his heifers. Could be that he doesn't cull based on disposition as he states that he only culls 'em when they are dead. But his seem to be pretty crazy. I do by charlois cross cows off the market but I walk the pens get their hip numbers lloking at there conformation and DISPOSITIONS there and in the sale ring. They act foolish there they act foolish on the farm. Just my opinion but it works for me and my body is the one that counts when I have to handle our stock. LOL.

 

[hillbillycwo]

Had my bull tested by my vet. He is in good shape and is 2 years old. The vet said he is hotter than a fire cracker and should be able to breed my cows if he isn't gay. Hope he isn't. I am not going to breed him to heifers as the calves hitting the ground now are around 95 lbs for the bulls(3) and 75 lbs for the lone heifer. He will be used for the cows as I have no idea about his EPD's. I am not planning on keeping any heifers out of him for replacements. I will keep any replacements from our other bul that is on the main herd at the home place. thanks for all the advice. I am going with a simmetal when I replace this bull.