Building a herd in 1 day.

[milkmaid]

Re the broke bull issue - a bull's penis is made of cartilage, not bone, and yes, it can break just the same as your nose (which is cartilage too) can be broken.

There's a pic of a broke bull in the cow problems thread; it's also called penile hematoma. I've only seen two broke bulls and both healed up just fine (vet checked later and went back to work) with 60 days rest away from cycling cows.

 

[Brandonm22]

There are NO mountain lions in Alabama. The last confirmed mountain lion sighting was killed by farmers in my native St Clair County in 1947 (I am sure my Grandfather knew those guys). We all keep hearing black panther stories; but none of those "sightings" have ever been confirmed. There are a lot of Black bears in Baldwin and Mobile counties; but I kind of doubt that a bear (quite capable of taking one yearling) is making his living taking cattle that size. A poacher took a coyote probably on my place and dumped him by my gate. THAT was the biggest coyote I have ever seen. IF the kill was fresher when I got to him, I would have took him to the zoo or Auburn to ask what the heck that really was really big coyote, coyote/dog hybrid, or coyote/wolf hybrid. Could that THING have taken a yearling heifer???? I still have doubts. What you might have is DOGS. They will run them to death for the fun of it. Well fed dogs can ran multiple full grown cows too death because they will keep running them and running them and running them.

 

[Cattleman200]

Re: Building a herd in 1 day.
by Brandonm22 on Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:08 pm

There are NO mountain lions in Alabama. The last confirmed mountain lion sighting was killed by farmers in my native St Clair County in 1947 (I am sure my Grandfather knew those guys).
I believe you would be mistaken by this comment. A friend of mine attended a deer hunting meeting at Redstone Arsenel a few years back. The people conducting the meeting told the potential hunters that there were mountain lions in the areas that they would be hunting in and that some had been tagged. They said under no circumstances were the hunters to shoot or kill any of them but that if they did see one to report the exact location and time that it was seen. My friend decided that he didnt need to hunt there.


Circle H Ranch

 

[kenny thomas]

Brandonm22, if I remember my genitics correctly a coyote will not cross with a wolf. Some of them seem that way though. If you DNA test them you will find that most of the coyote's over about 38-40lb will have some dog cross. A dog will cross with either a coyote or a wolf though.

 

[TheLazyM]

TheLazyM,

What did the heifers weigh when you joined them with the bull and how old were they? It really sounds like you were too hasty to get them bred (more of us has made that mistake in the past )

I disagree that 25 cows to a bull is the maximum ratio, and to run 1 bull for every 20 cows is an overkill. 37 cows can never justify running 2 quality bulls and to lower the quality on the bull side simply isn't an option. Using a 2 1/2 or 3 year old on 37 cows is ample bull power for a 60 day breeding season on smallish pastures. I use yearlings on that many on very unhospitable range with no problems, you just need to manage them for that purpose.

The bull and heifers where raised together. They had never been separated untell calves started hitting the ground Last summer. On the arrival of the first calf I separated the bull. I put him back Week before thanksgiven. I guessed the heifers between 750# and 900# When they started getting covered.
I disagree also w/ the 25/1 ratio. A friend of mine has 42 black Angus cows. I'm not sure of the split but he has them split into 2 groups. A bulls first season he splits Herd into 3 groups. But anyway he has 2 calving seasons, and the bull has 2 mating seasons. He has told me the numbers but I cant remember them. Its hard for me to tell his success ratio cause if after 14 months after the bull has been with them and she does'nt drop or show thats going to drop he sells her and buys another. I cant go into detail cause at the time when he explained it to me I could careless. I did'nt have any plans to ever bred. I'm going back to the drawing board. This is far from over. I'm not going to do it in a day but will succed.
North Alabama has Mountain Lions.

 

[Brandonm22]

North Alabama has Mountain Lions.

The State strongly DENIES it. I have talked to people who claim to have seen "big black cats"; but I have real doubts. http://www.outdooralabama.com/hunting/a ... /truth.cfm

 

[Brandonm22]

Brandonm22, if I remember my genitics correctly a coyote will not cross with a wolf. Some of them seem that way though. If you DNA test them you will find that most of the coyote's over about 38-40lb will have some dog cross. A dog will cross with either a coyote or a wolf though.

I can't remember the guy's name; but at the AL bow hunter's expo in ~2007 a Predator hunting speaker claimed that the reason some SE coyotes were freakishly big compared to their western cousins was crossing with the remnants of the red wolf population.

The writer of this article also believes we see wolf- coyote hybridization.

http://wolfcrossing.org/2007/11/14/hybr ... r-the-esa/

as do these guys

http://www.projectcoyote.org/newsreleas ... stern.html

I know the thing I found was at least 40 pounds live (hard to tell because it had been dead for days) and was a bunch longer legged and leaner legged than my rather unusually lanky blue heelers with a much longer leaner head (a lot of snout). I have shot a bunch of coyotes (and dogs too) over the years too and I am still not certain what that was.

 

[kenny thomas]

Brandonm22, very good articles. Guess i will have to restudy my genitics. I had a friend that help with the re-introduction of the red wolf into North Carolina (which I did not agree with but that is another story) and I do remember him saying they had a lot of problem finding pure 100% red wolf to transplant. Most of them had dog mix. Most of the coyotes here I think also are a mix.

 

[Brandonm22]

I read an internet article a couple of weeks ago where a genetics researcher had come to the conclusion that the Black wolves common in North American wolf populations but completely unheard of in European/Asian wolves was tracable to Indians' dogs 10,000 years ago. Don't ask me what led him to conclude that; but if true it would show that the two very closely related species have been influencing each other genetically for millenia.

 

[TheLazyM]

North Alabama has Mountain Lions.

The State strongly DENIES it. I have talked to people who claim to have seen "big black cats"; but I have real doubts. http://www.outdooralabama.com/hunting/a ... /truth.cfm

I've talked to gamewardens and rangers that say the BankHead and skyline has Mountainlions. A ranger came into where I work to buy some wheat, told us they had been trying to catch a momma lion and her cubs to take to the zoo in bham. Their problem was she kept moving. They could find her afterwards but as soon as they setup she was gone. A mountain lion was turned over to the moulton zoo that was shot. As far as I know it still lives there.
I dont know why you would doubt a panter living in Alabama> It's not like they could'nt live here. Theres still alot of land in Alabama.

 

[kenny thomas]

Maybe so, my friend also always said that if you saw a black coyote it was for sure part dog.

 

[TC Cattle]

I disagree also w/ the 25/1 ratio. A friend of mine has 42 black Angus cows. I'm not sure of the split but he has them split into 2 groups. A bulls first season he splits Herd into 3 groups. But anyway he has 2 calving seasons, and the bull has 2 mating seasons. He has told me the numbers but I cant remember them. Its hard for me to tell his success ratio cause if after 14 months after the bull has been with them and she does'nt drop or show thats going to drop he sells her and buys another. I cant go into detail cause at the time when he explained it to me I could careless.

You don't have to agree with our management, that's okay. But, if you were to break down the numbers that you posted from your neighbor there, the ratio would be 1:21 essentially. So, perhaps there is some knowledge behind this. And apparently you leave your bull in year-round and calves are produced willy nilly, if at all. 98% has been the lowest conception rate we've had and we have a 30-60 day calving period for the entire herd.

No wonder the poor thing's ding dong broke - that's a lot of work!

I'm wondering about the coyote thing. You said earlier that you thought coyotes were getting the calves and then talked about this electric fence that stops them from entering the pasture. I think something else is going on here. A mountain lion drags its kill off, hides it and comes back for it later. If it was a mountain lion, you wouldn't see the calf there - but you would see tracks or drag marks. (In my experience.)

 

[TheLazyM]

I disagree also w/ the 25/1 ratio. A friend of mine has 42 black Angus cows. I'm not sure of the split but he has them split into 2 groups. A bulls first season he splits Herd into 3 groups. But anyway he has 2 calving seasons, and the bull has 2 mating seasons. He has told me the numbers but I cant remember them. Its hard for me to tell his success ratio cause if after 14 months after the bull has been with them and she does'nt drop or show thats going to drop he sells her and buys another. I cant go into detail cause at the time when he explained it to me I could careless.

You don't have to agree with our management, that's okay. But, if you were to break down the numbers that you posted from your neighbor there, the ratio would be 1:21 essentially. So, perhaps there is some knowledge behind this. And apparently you leave your bull in year-round and calves are produced willy nilly, if at all. 98% has been the lowest conception rate we've had and we have a 30-60 day calving period for the entire herd.

No wonder the poor thing's ding dong broke - that's a lot of work!

I'm wondering about the coyote thing. You said earlier that you thought coyotes were getting the calves and then talked about this electric fence that stops them from entering the pasture. I think something else is going on here. A mountain lion drags its kill off, hides it and comes back for it later. If it was a mountain lion, you wouldn't see the calf there - but you would see tracks or drag marks. (In my experience.)

Brother I think your taking me all wrong. I will try one more time.
My bull was left year round with the heifers untell calves started showing up. Before then the bull and the heifers where just pasture mates, calves, whatever you want to call them. I had heifers that I knew that was prenate. I saw no need in separating at that time. I read things about people hurring up and getting their bull right on their cows shortly after shes calves. Myself I dont like that idea. No reason just dont sit right with me. I have read that it can shorten the bredding life of a cow if she bredds back very quickly her whole life. I dont know if its true or not. I'm still working on my first generation of calves. Matter of fact thats the whole point in this thread. The point is my eyes have opened up. Building a herd is harder to do than say. It takes more work than planning. The mile gets longer every day as something new goes wrong. You dont double up every calving season.
You left me thinking you was saying a bull can only serve 25 cows period. I knew that was'nt right. It all comes down to mangement I reckon. What happened to my bull can very well be my fault. I dont know how. But anyway.
I never said a Mountainlion got my calves. Matter of fact I never mentioned anything about mountainlion untell it was said there was no mountainlions in Alabama. Is it hard to understand that you realize you have problem so you solve it? After hunting, and trapping coyotes and losing animals to them I figured out I was'nt getting anywhere so I built a electric fence to keep animals out as well as keep animals in. What do you not understand here. The fence came last. The fence has been the best solution to hunting and trapping, and dogs for the coyotes.
Can you understand I just took some calves born on my land from animals that I bought bred and decided to try to make a herd from it? Do you get this was something brand new to me? Do you get that I never put my bull on 37 females? My bull was only paired with 18 heifers he had been raised with? My god I know I stink at writing but you seem to be the only one that dont understand anything I say no matter how I say it.
I'm building my farms by hand by myself. I was'nt raised in this it's something I took on myself. When I started I never intended on bredding it was just buying and selling. I have built what I have on the practice of buying and selling. was never going to keep an animal long enough to breed. So seperating them was never a practice. I seperated the very second that I thought I should have.
My first time around I've made some stupid costly mistakes. You can bet I learned from them. But you know what? Theres always Today and cattletoday. I can try again. Just today I bought 4 more heifers and a bull calf. Tommorrow I'm going to another farm to buy some more heifers.
In hind sight I reckon I could have saved myself alot of heartache if I just said Building a herd is harder than throwing a few heifers and a bull together and hoping for the best.

 

[KNERSIE]

I get the idea you genuinely want to learn and make a success of this, I also get the idea that alot was left to chance and that you've realised the mistakes of the past. So lets forget about that and focus on the way forward.

Heifers and a bull can't be raised together in the hope that the bull will only start breeding heifers when they are ready, heifers will start cycling much earlier than they can safely be bred and bulls are very much like teenage boys, they have no scruples. If a heifer is in season the bull will breed her regardless of your plans with her or the consequences at calving time.

To lose that amount of calves and heifers due to distocia tells you something wasn't quite right, it could have been the bull throwing very large calves not built to be born easily, or the genetics of the heifers so that calving just is going to be difficult or most likely it was a management and timing issue.

Get yourself a weight tape and weigh the heifers, if they don't weigh a minimum of 800lbs and is older than 14 months don't breed them. If they can't get to that weight in a timely manner they aren't worth keeping. Use quality bulls and synchronise your calving season to be in harmony with nature and your environment. Depending on how cold that is it usually means the start of your breeding season should coincide with the start of your best grazing season, or more simply put, you should calf ahead of your grass season. This ensures a rising plane of condition at the critical time of rebreeding, minimising input cost and maximising conception rates.

Building a herd takes time, but its not that difficult either, just learn enough to know what you want and need and make sure what you want isn't unrealistic and with consistant selection criteria your goal is more achievable than you might think now.

 

[Brandonm22]

North Alabama has Mountain Lions.

The State strongly DENIES it. I have talked to people who claim to have seen "big black cats"; but I have real doubts. http://www.outdooralabama.com/hunting/a ... /truth.cfm

I've talked to gamewardens and rangers that say the BankHead and skyline has Mountainlions. A ranger came into where I work to buy some wheat, told us they had been trying to catch a momma lion and her cubs to take to the zoo in bham. Their problem was she kept moving. They could find her afterwards but as soon as they setup she was gone. A mountain lion was turned over to the moulton zoo that was shot. As far as I know it still lives there.
I dont know why you would doubt a panter living in Alabama> It's not like they could'nt live here. Theres still alot of land in Alabama.

Great Days Outdoors Magazine which covers hunting and fishing in great detail recently did a cover article on big cats in Alabama
http://www.gcomag.com/
and the author himself thinks he once saw a black panther; but there is no hard evidence of a Mountain lion or jaguar in Skyline or anywhere else in the state. Frankly, some state wildlife biologists thinks anybody who brings up this whole subject is NUTS and Mountain lion sighting are taken slightly more seriously than Big Foot or Space Alien sightings. The Alabama Farmers Cooperative News Magazine covered this whole topic ~six months ago. It is perhaps POSSIBLE that there is a breeding population of cats somewhere and DNR is keeping their existence under wraps for their protection. As many timber managers, loggers, hunters, and marijuana growers as there are wandering around the woods in Alabama not to mention trail cams if there were a serious number of big cats out there somebody would have a good pic or a carcass by now. I think the wounded cat you referenced has been ruled to be somebody's pet turned loose/escaped. We can argue about phantom mountain lions all day long; but at the end of the day it is highly unlikely that a mountain lion (if one even exists in Alabama) took out your heifers. Consider putting trail cams out. That would show you everything that is running around on your land.

 

[jedstivers]

North Alabama has Mountain Lions.

The State strongly DENIES it. I have talked to people who claim to have seen "big black cats"; but I have real doubts. http://www.outdooralabama.com/hunting/a ... /truth.cfm

They don't live in Arkansas either according to the AR G&F but a black one was 700' from my house and a tan one was a 1/4 mile away. There have been at least three black sightings but only one of the tan but it was standing still in the open in the daylight and close. The black sightings were also in the daylight but only one was still but all were close.

 

[TC Cattle]

I'm still working on my first generation of calves. Matter of fact thats the whole point in this thread. The point is my eyes have opened up. Building a herd is harder to do than say. It takes more work than planning.

This is the underlying mistake that you are making. If you plan first, it's a lot less work and loss.

Good luck to you and your animals. It was my mistake in thinking you were actually looking for help or answers.

On a side note for anyone interested about the mountain lion issue, there's a good article in Range this quarter on the subject. http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/spring-09/sp09-cat.pdf

 

[TheLazyM]

I'm still working on my first generation of calves. Matter of fact thats the whole point in this thread. The point is my eyes have opened up. Building a herd is harder to do than say. It takes more work than planning.

This is the underlying mistake that you are making. If you plan first, it's a lot less work and loss.

Good luck to you and your animals. It was my mistake in thinking you were actually looking for help or answers.

On a side note for anyone interested about the mountain lion issue, there's a good article in Range this quarter on the subject. http://www.rangemagazine.com/features/spring-09/sp09-cat.pdf

I called myself planning. I guess to your standards I did'nt plan at all. No you made no mistake about I'm always looking for help and answers. I'm sorry I missed where you began tring to help. This whole time I've had to defend myself to you. You've taken alot of what I said wrong. I took responsiblity for that a couple times. I'm not doing it again. I've tried my best to help you understand. You've even had me saying things I did'nt say.
So we disagree about a bull. Have I said you cant mange cattle? No. I did'nt say you was wrong about any of your advice. Going w/ a proven bull is probally the best bet. Like I said I cant go that route. Friend I cant just go buy a bull cause someone suggest it. I have to look at what I have to work with money and material wise and make the best decision I can. Yesterday I bought a 8 month old bull calf. Nope I'm not looking for him to do me any good in the next year to year and a half. I bought 4 heifers calfs yesterday and 10 today. I'm raising these 14 and be looking at them close and cull where I think I need to. As far as my 8 is concerned I'm planning on having my 5 cows thats already calved checked to see if their pregant. If not I'll have them AI. I would like to have all 8 did at the same time. That will hold me over for this season. I'm just waiting for prices to raise to take my 5 calves to the sell. I dont know about you but, I call this alot of work.
Heck I could cheat and go buy a herd. Theres 4 farm sales in march. Proven bull proven cows even replacement heifers. I would have it made.

 

[KNERSIE]

A bull can go to work much younger than you are planning to use him, so please don't be naive enough to think that he can't breed a young heifer.

Mistakes will always happen, I had a young heifer (20 months old) calve this week and the only bulls she could have been exposed to is suckling bullcalves that was weaned when the oldest was 8 months old last year. Luckily in her case she calved unassisted and is doing the calf well so far, but she is now completely out of season for my herd.

14 month old bulls can and will breed many more cows than most might think, I had a bull customer use one on 72 cows a few years ago and he bred 66 of them. And contrary to popular believe the bull isn't now stunted for life and developed pretty much to his full potential. But that still wouldn't be good practice.

 

[TheLazyM]

A bull can go to work much younger than you are planning to use him, so please don't be naive enough to think that he can't breed a young heifer.

Aight so what do you suggest put him with the heifers this fall or next spring. The 15 animals I bought the past 2 days very close to age, size and body condiction. I would say the youngest is 5 months and the oldest 9 months. I can really throw the feed to them to build them up. If our weather keeps up like its going grass is going to spike real soon so that'll be a plus. Things are already starting to green out in the pasture.
If it comes sooner I'm thrilled to death. If it takes time I can live with that. My cattle operation does'nt feed me. It dont hurt me to buy animals and put them out there and look at them.I just had to sell over 100 goats cause we looked up and had over 110 kids. Last spring we bought 45 nannies and 3 billies. My kids take care of the goats. Thats their project. It helps me in my worming program. They did'nt want to sell anything. I got to going thru alot of hay and counting goats and decided we had more than we could sustain.