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BUBS Southern Charm AA31

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NEFarmwife

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LCBulls":1pl9pz8m said:
Yeah “Epd’s”, just like that bull that NE posted with really good EPDs.
EPDs are highly overrated. I will almost guarantee that his milk drops once he has milking Daughters. And therefore his $E will get better. Only time will tell.
EPD’s are a snapshot in time. Don’t mean that much until there are hundreds of progeny

Yeah, don’t think we’re going to keep our heifer either. And that is the problem with the bull calves from this sire, they look very feminine. But our heifer isn’t pretty. We might be able to breed something good to her to fix her fate but they were all around, very disappointing.
 

LCBulls

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NEFarmwife":1ph897yw said:
LCBulls":1ph897yw said:
Sons of Payweight 1682 is much different than directly out of 1682, but I’ve heard of a few people who don’t care for them. Those people are definitely in the Minority. 1682’s have been the most or one of the most sought after Sire groups for the past few years. I’m sure that he can throw some duds and I’ve heard some feet issues.

We didn’t experience any of that with Playbook so far. His calves have excellent structure and phenotype that should last and hold up in rugged environments.

Agree with what you’re saying. But I’ve been seeing his other progeny pop up in sale books and I’m just not fond of them.

1682 or Playbook?
 

LCBulls

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Looking at the pedigree leads me to believe that Connealy Confidence might have had something to do with it. His calves were pretty dang small and not a lot of growth. He was all the rage until his numbers plunged.
Gaffney Game Changers were pretty nice though.
Who really knows why some matings seem to click while others don’t. I wish I had all the answers.
 

NEFarmwife

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LCBulls":2tz6r8ga said:
NEFarmwife":2tz6r8ga said:
LCBulls":2tz6r8ga said:
Sons of Payweight 1682 is much different than directly out of 1682, but I’ve heard of a few people who don’t care for them. Those people are definitely in the Minority. 1682’s have been the most or one of the most sought after Sire groups for the past few years. I’m sure that he can throw some duds and I’ve heard some feet issues.

We didn’t experience any of that with Playbook so far. His calves have excellent structure and phenotype that should last and hold up in rugged environments.

Agree with what you’re saying. But I’ve been seeing his other progeny pop up in sale books and I’m just not fond of them.

1682 or Playbook?
1682 sons that I’ve viewed. I do like Playbooks look.
 

NEFarmwife

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LCBulls":3pancnz5 said:
Looking at the pedigree leads me to believe that Connealy Confidence might have had something to do with it. His calves were pretty dang small and not a lot of growth. He was all the rage until his numbers plunged.
Gaffney Game Changers were pretty nice though.
Who really knows why some matings seem to click while others don’t. I wish I had all the answers.
We have some Game Changers coming now. We bred some to second calf heifers. We’ve had to pull two and they ran a little bigger than they should have been but my husband felt in those two instances, that neither dams tried very hard because they were very easy pulls.
 

LCBulls

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NEFarmwife":1ftcca46 said:
LCBulls":1ftcca46 said:
Looking at the pedigree leads me to believe that Connealy Confidence might have had something to do with it. His calves were pretty dang small and not a lot of growth. He was all the rage until his numbers plunged.
Gaffney Game Changers were pretty nice though.
Who really knows why some matings seem to click while others don’t. I wish I had all the answers.
We have some Game Changers coming now. We bred some to second calf heifers. We’ve had to pull two and they ran a little bigger than they should have been but my husband felt in those two instances, that neither dams tried very hard because they were very easy pulls.

That’s interesting, we didn’t have any trouble with them at all on heifers. The lone survivor from our Frozen Pond fiasco was a Game Changer x Donna first calf heifer. Just about lost her as well. She is really nice and has a great EPD profile. We will have to see if she lives up to the EPD’s.
 

NEFarmwife

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LCBulls":35akjnc0 said:
NEFarmwife":35akjnc0 said:
LCBulls":35akjnc0 said:
Looking at the pedigree leads me to believe that Connealy Confidence might have had something to do with it. His calves were pretty dang small and not a lot of growth. He was all the rage until his numbers plunged.
Gaffney Game Changers were pretty nice though.
Who really knows why some matings seem to click while others don’t. I wish I had all the answers.
We have some Game Changers coming now. We bred some to second calf heifers. We’ve had to pull two and they ran a little bigger than they should have been but my husband felt in those two instances, that neither dams tried very hard because they were very easy pulls.

That’s interesting, we didn’t have any trouble with them at all on heifers. The lone survivor from our Frozen Pond fiasco was a Game Changer x Donna first calf heifer. Just about lost her as well. She is really nice and has a great EPD profile. We will have to see if she lives up to the EPD’s.
I think my husband was likely right on them. I wouldn’t say they’re birth weights were enormous. Just a bit bigger than expected.
 

Brookhill Angus

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I'm scratching my head on this one. Everything we have in the herd that has Basin blood in it performs. I think Basin puts out an exceptional product.

You never here much about the cows that produced these "lousy" animals. What was their backstory?
 

Stickney94

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Apologies for resurrecting a zombie thread but saw that Southern Charm was hurt and put down earlier this week.

See note in first part of description on the right.

https://origenbeef.org/semen_detail.php?bull=889

In case you want to place some orders.
 

kentuckyguy

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I have to disagree with those being poor udders. While they are not perfect they are FAR from being poor.

I never used Southern Charm but I believe he had some good attributes to bring to the table.
 

Ebenezer

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When a dry cow looks like that I sort of know what she'll look like when she calves. I do not want that, I would cull if it was mine and would not pay or breed to get it. I assume we are looking at the dam.

Once again we learn the hard, cruel lesson of early development and over development of bulls. If you want feedlot type performance and data, feed and kill sib steers. If you want bulls with function and longevity, develop slowly but consistently. Kids are no different. Early entry into sports has raised a rash of injuries to kids; some permanent. It is recognized and warning are out there. On bulls, it seems the answer is buffer the feed to prevent rumen issues and the more gain the merrier. Either learn the lessons, complain that the great ones melted away in your pasture or salvage the injured young bulls for burgers. All things have limits.
 

W.B.

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I never saw the bull in person but never cared for how he or his progeny walked on video. Did this cause his demise? I don’t necessarily think so as bulls get injured all the time breeding cows and is part of life. As far as udders go I feel there is no such thing as too good of an udder. There are lots of cows that would extend their productive life 2 to 5 years if they had better udders. When we look at depreciation costs in the cowherd that is serious money. The bull in question here would be a downgrade by a fair bit on udder quality for me. Easier to cull problems like udders than it is to breed it out but multiplying more problems is less than smart.
 

76 Bar

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Beef semen pimp's obviously haven't a clue. :frowns:
Charm descends from a line of females with quality udder structure
Regardless of one's opinion regarding Gerald Frey his remarks on the topic of udders are spot on:
The udder should be small and tucked neatly between the back legs with
four equally placed nipples 3-4 inches long. The udder should attach high
up behind the back legs for longevity and soundness.
The udder should blend into the lower part of the belly very smoothly
with no V or crevice between the udder and stomach. The udder should not be tilted up in front. Tilted udders are a structural defect resulting from the sire and his scrotal makeup. Tilted udders have less milk.
The udder has a direct influence on the scrotal make up and navel area of her sons.
IMNSHO the challenge of resolving/correcting udder and feet issues takes generations of diligent corrective measures. Buyer beware.
 

Stickney94

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There was a great comment in another forum asking why the need to debate the merits of female offspring if the bull was perhaps best suited as a terminal sire.

Some in the cattle business are looking for terminal sires. :D

But, just to fuel the debate -- I had a heifer calve with what I assume (just looked at the angus scoring guide) many would say was a superior udder and teat. Except she didn't claim the calf.

I have some 6, 7, 8 year old cows with less than ideal udders and teats, but they are excellent mothers and wean off my best calves.

There is a balance in all areas. I cull hard on mothering capability as a whole.
 

76 Bar

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There was a great comment in another forum asking why the need to debate the merits of female offspring if the bull was perhaps best suited as a terminal sire.
Using terminal sires is an acknowledged practice. Problematic is few have the discipline to ship all and resist the temptation to incorporate the heifers as replacements...and then become frustrated when they fall short of mark maternally.
But, just to fuel the debate -- I had a heifer calve with what I assume (just looked at the angus scoring guide) many would say was a superior udder and teat. Except she didn't claim the calf.
Udder structure & lack of mothering instinct aren't correlated. As per your comment below, I trust you culled her ASAP.
There is a balance in all areas. I cull hard on mothering capability as a whole.
Some things are easier to tolerate. Compromising on conformation/udder/feet will sooner rather than later come home to roost. :2cents:
 

Stickney94

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76 Bar said:
Using terminal sires is an acknowledged practice. Problematic is few have the discipline to ship all and resist the temptation to incorporate the heifers as replacements...and then become frustrated when they fall short of mark maternally.

Agreed.

76 Bar said:
Udder structure & lack of mothering instinct aren't correlated. As per your comment below, I trust you culled her ASAP.

Can I claim success if I managed to negotiate a truce that allowed me to avoid a bottle calf? In all honesty she likely received a Covid-19 reprieve. I had more time to mess with her than I normally would (due to Covid closure) and, more importantly, due to the huge meat processing shutdowns regionally my local lockers were/are booked out until April/May 2021. Without that she would already be in my fat cattle yard.
 

elkwc

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An y updates on his progeny. I'm goiny to look at 3 of his sons. Would like to hear comments about both aons and daughters
 

LJCB

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I have 2 bulls and a heifer that are alittle under 90 days old and one of the bull calves is the biggest calf I have and the heifer is also the biggest heifer I have .
Heres the bull calf
 

SA Angus

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Sons of Payweight 1682 is much different than directly out of 1682, but I’ve heard of a few people who don’t care for them. Those people are definitely in the Minority. 1682’s have been the most or one of the most sought after Sire groups for the past few years. I’m sure that he can throw some duds and I’ve heard some feet issues.

We didn’t experience any of that with Playbook so far. His calves have excellent structure and phenotype that should last and hold up in rugged environments.
I see 1682 as a changer if you need that huge rib capacity in your genetics. I agree that sons of 1682 are not as extreme and are more attractive.
 

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