Breech birth, calf dead-should we butcher cow now?

[justacouplemore]

I have a question and am looking for some opinions.

Had a nearly 3 year old Hereford heifer go into labor Wednesday. Initially saw some discharge and 1 hoof. Kept watching to see if she was progressing. Nothing. She didn't seem to be interested in pushing at all. Showed very few signs of discomfort. She would get up and go graze, drink, etc like it was just a another day. Husband went in to feel around. Wasn't able to get a good hold of the second hoof so we called the vet. Vet came. Baby is breech. They pulled the calf. It was dead. Full term calf, perfectly formed, excellent size.

The vet said in his opinion he would butcher the heifer now because as he worded it, "She's lazy". He said "There is absolutely NO reason she shouldn't have been pushing more. She's just lazy and didn't want to." He also added that she's apt to have the same thing happen over and over again. After the birth, he used 3 hot shots to get her up. He said she was "sulking", and then added, "See what I mean about how lazy she is?"

What would you do? I mean, just because a heifer has a breech birth her first time calving, is that a reason to cull her? The fact that she wouldn't push, is that because she's lazy, as the vet stated or because of the breech calf? We have a small herd and really arent sure what to do.

I'd appreciate any input. Thanks.

 

[bandit80]

Sorry about your calf, but it happens.

I don't know that I would sell/butcher her because the vet says she is lazy. I would sell/butcher her because it is not cost effective to keep a cow who is not raising a calf. It will only cost you money. Sell and take the proceeds and put it towards a pair if you want to replace her.

There have been a lot of people saying their cows have either quit pushing, or never pushed this year for one reason or another. Happened to me. Just because she did that this year, I would not say it is written in stone that she will do it again. However, with her being nearly 3 and just having her first calf, it might not be instilled into her how to birth and raise a calf. You can take a chance and keep her if you want, but I wouldn't just because of the above reason.

 

[ANAZAZI]

I am not entirely sure what breach means, but I understood this: dead calf and difficult calving. This is more likely to happen again to this heifer than to another. However it is not so likely that it must happen. If you are to cull it, it has to heal first, and if it heals well you may keep it. But you can also cull it solely because it has no calf. So wait and see is my advice, because if the cow was to damaged in calving the dead calf it will not rebreed either; but if it heals well, it will probably rebreed. Make sense?

 

[fourstates]

The calf presentation is what initiates the cow's urge to push. Unless pressure it placed on the cervix, the cow will not "know" that she is supposed to push. One breech birth does not mean it will ever happen again. The heifer did not choose to not push, It is instinct. A stillbirth caused by a malpresentation, is not the cows fault. With that kind of vet care and advise in this cow's future, I would just go ahead and butcher her. It sounds to me like the vet was feeling frustrated or guilty.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

a breech should be one coming butt first. rear feet up under. one can push till they give out a still no results. dont mean she's lazy its a impossible delivery without a assistance had one a couple years ago it aint a cake walk

 

[dun]

Over the years we've had exactly 2 "lazy calvers", ii.e didn;t go into active labor and push. Those 2 cows have since become productive members of the herd. Some breeds are notable for producing more lazy calvers then others. The vet calls it "heifer disease". Jeanne had a cow that didn;t go into active labor but I've never seen a cow do it (or not dor it) myself.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

Breech can be any mal-presentation of the calf into the cervix. If a calf does not pass through the cervix correctly it rarely can put pressure on the right parts of the cervix to initiate the need or desire to push. Once a calf is wedged enough into the cervix you reach a point of no return. At this point the cow has no choice but to push until the calf is born or she wears out and even then she still must push but exhaustion spaces out how often she can push.

Laziness is something that usually only occurs in first calf heifers. Sometimes it isn't so much a matter of laziness, it just takes longer. 1. the cervix wall is thicker with 1st calf heifers and takes longer to break down and dialate. 2. heifers don't know what they are doing. They sometimes will get up and pace and not remain focused. 3. Sometimes a heifer will stop and only do small pushes b/c she is limiting her pain, she starts to push but then it hurts so she quits before she puts too much effort into it.

Culling an animal due to a breech calf would be difficult for me (Only experienced it once and that was in the mid90s). With me personally, for my herd, their would be other factors I would want to consider, such as her pelvic area, lineage, etc. With this exact situation, I do agree that she should have calved before this point. What was her BCS a year ago? Was she too fat? For being 3 and just calved I would cull her. Actually, I would have culled her last year.

 

[I luv herfrds]

I agree that you waited too long to call the vet. I'm just curious to know if you have ever pulled a breech before? I did 2 this year, that's why I am asking.
Now as to butchering her that is up to you, personally we like to give ours a second chance.

ANAZAZI a breech is a calf that is coming hind feet or tail first instead of front feet first.

 

[WORANCH]

":h8ncrcb5]#1 no wonder she had problems you waited til she was nearly three to allow her to calve. [/b]That usually makes them less productive and their reproduction all out of whack. That was the first mistake. Second mistake it sounds like you waited to long to call the vet. .

Caving as a 3 year old was not the problem . Not to many years ago alot of breeders calved at 36 mo . I know some now that still calve out heifers at 30 -36 mo.

Breech birth is characterized with a calf coming butt first with no front or rear legs entering the birth canal. The tail and hindquarters of the calf can be palpated .

I would cull her ,not because she had a breech , but because she is not raising a calf . Every cow needs to wean a calf ever year..

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

As our females are calving we keep a very close eye on their delivery. We had 2 cows calve breech this year first time in many, many years. The first was a vet job & took 3people + vet to pull the calf, 2nd was easy walked right up to the cow in the paddock with the calf chains, slipped them over the calf's feet & pulled.
That said would I cull her because of a breech birth ? No what I would now be doing s looking for a foster calf let her rear that if possible & you can take the time out that is involved with a task like that ( you may even have to skin her calf & tie it onto the foster calf for a week or so not nice but it does work). Second thing I would do is look for a bull with more calving ease for with next breeding time.

 

[novatech]

Second thing I would do is look for a bull with more calving ease for with next breeding time.

How would a calving ease bull help with breach births?
Is breach birth a genetic problem that would be passed on or even repeated in the same cow? If not then why cull. If this cow has been a money maker in the past she should breed back pretty quick and get you another calf. If the odds are she may repeat this problem then by all means send her to the packer.

 

[dun]

Second thing I would do is look for a bull with more calving ease for with next breeding time.

How would a calving ease bull help with breach births?
Is breach birth a genetic problem that would be passed on or even repeated in the same cow? If not then why cull. If this cow has been a money maker in the past she should breed back pretty quick and get you another calf. If the odds are she may repeat this problem then by all means send her to the packer.

I know of one cow that always had breech calves. Real breech with the legs tucked nder and only the butt being prsented. The others I've seen have done it once but never repeated. But I'm only talking about dozen cows over the years.

 

[KNERSIE]

Second thing I would do is look for a bull with more calving ease for with next breeding time.

How would a calving ease bull help with breach births?
Is breach birth a genetic problem that would be passed on or even repeated in the same cow? If not then why cull. If this cow has been a money maker in the past she should breed back pretty quick and get you another calf. If the odds are she may repeat this problem then by all means send her to the packer.

I know of one cow that always had breech calves. Real breech with the legs tucked nder and only the butt being prsented. The others I've seen have done it once but never repeated. But I'm only talking about dozen cows over the years.

Just curious have you ever seen a breech calf out a second calver or older unless it was twins?

For what its worth I see a lazy calver as a mature cow that simply won't push the calf out when its a normal presentation. One of my neighbours have a cow like that and I had to pull the calf out the last two years. Told him not to bother calling me next year for the same cow again.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Knersie, yes I have seen breechs in cows older then a 2 and 3 yo. All of them so far have been a single birth.
Your neighbor needs to ship his lazy cow.

I have never heard of a breech birth being caused by genetics. I was told by our vet that the calf either had not enough room to turn around, was too big to turn or just plain didn't turn for some unknown reason.

 

[Chris H]

Just curious have you ever seen a breech calf out a second calver or older unless it was twins?

For what its worth I see a lazy calver as a mature cow that simply won't push the calf out when its a normal presentation. One of my neighbours have a cow like that and I had to pull the calf out the last two years. Told him not to bother calling me next year for the same cow again.

That made me think, in over 1000+ pregnant cows I've been around over the years I only know of 2 tail first breeches, 1 two year old, and 1 was the first of twins out of a mature cow. As for back feet first breeches, I've only assisted 2 mature cows. The first was 'my' dairy cow when I was a teen, I practically sat around waiting for her to calve and jumped at the chance to 'assist' for the first time. The second was a very large calf out of a large beef cow who was a bit too thin. However, I've assisted a number of back feet first calves out of heifers. I doubt the percentage of back feet v. front feet first is any different between heifers & mature cows, it's just a heifer takes longer to calve and a back feet first calf makes it more difficult for her to dilate properly.

 

[justacouplemore]

Thanks for all the replies. I really appreciate all the input.

As to the comment, we waited too long to call the vet. I 100% agree. I should have had him out here ASAP but I wasn't aware I had a problem until I REALLY noticed I had a problem. Does that make sense? Hindsight is a great thing. We should have gloved up as soon as we saw she was in labor, to check the position.

Again, thanks for all the input. It's nice having a place where I can get feedback on a difficult situation.

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie, yes I have seen breechs in cows older then a 2 and 3 yo. All of them so far have been a single birth.
Your neighbor needs to ship his lazy cow.

I have never heard of a breech birth being caused by genetics. I was told by our vet that the calf either had not enough room to turn around, was too big to turn or just plain didn't turn for some unknown reason.

I agree with your vet, that's why I asked if you ever see breech births in older cows.

 

[Keren]

I have a question and am looking for some opinions.

Had a nearly 3 year old Hereford heifer go into labor Wednesday. Initially saw some discharge and 1 hoof. Kept watching to see if she was progressing. Nothing. She didn't seem to be interested in pushing at all. Showed very few signs of discomfort. She would get up and go graze, drink, etc like it was just a another day. Husband went in to feel around. Wasn't able to get a good hold of the second hoof so we called the vet. Vet came. Baby is breech. They pulled the calf. It was dead. Full term calf, perfectly formed, excellent size.

The vet said in his opinion he would butcher the heifer now because as he worded it, "She's lazy". He said "There is absolutely NO reason she shouldn't have been pushing more. She's just lazy and didn't want to." He also added that she's apt to have the same thing happen over and over again. After the birth, he used 3 hot shots to get her up. He said she was "sulking", and then added, "See what I mean about how lazy she is?"

You asked for opinions and here is mine. You need a new vet NOW. I dont want to offend but this guy sounds like he thinks way too much of himself. The heifer is not lazy; a breech birth almost always needs assistance to be delivered. It is only in a few cases where big, old cows have little calves that they can get them out backwards. Even if she did not push after the vet had repositioned the calf, she would have given up after trying so long to get it out. She would have been exhausted. She is NOT apt to have the same thing happen over and over again. It is the calf's job to be positioned correctly and for some reason this calf didnt do his part. And I would personally put the hotshot on any vet that decided to use it on an animal that had just had a difficult birth - for crying out loud use some common sense - after a difficult birth and after struggling for a long time she is going to need to recover. So in my opinion, your vet was wrong on three counts - I'd be getting a new vet.

What would you do? I mean, just because a heifer has a breech birth her first time calving, is that a reason to cull her? The fact that she wouldn't push, is that because she's lazy, as the vet stated or because of the breech calf? We have a small herd and really arent sure what to do.

For me, it is not a reason to cull her. She didnt push because the calf was breech. What I would do, is give her another chance, and if she ever doesnt push PROVIDED THE CALF IS POSITIONED CORRECTLY, then cull her. Also, I would go find an orphan calf to put on her so she is still earning her keep this year.

I'd appreciate any input. Thanks.

Good luck with her. Hope things go better for you next time round.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Yes Good luck with your heifer. Only you can decide if you want to keep her & give her another chance.

 

[msscamp]

We had 2 cows calve breech this year first time in many, many years. The first was a vet job & took 3people + vet to pull the calf, 2nd was easy walked right up to the cow in the paddock with the calf chains, slipped them over the calf's feet & pulled.

If you had feet, you didn't have a breech birth - breech is butt first, with hind feet tucked up under the calf. Sounds like you had a backwards birth - where one or both back feet are present.