Bloody diarrhea 4 day old calf Help

[fourstates]

I have been trying to bottle feed a newborn rejected calf with little luck and have been tubing formula. I have tried a bottle, with little luck. This morning I only gave calf 2 quarts of electrolytes, hoping he would get hungry enough for the bottle, but instead, he has developed bloody diarrhea. He did get two quarts colostrum about 2 hours after birth and I've been giving plenty of milk and fluids. I have given 3 doses of banamine over the last two days because of pain in his popping shoulders (see post about sore shoulders in B&C). Poor little guy. I am going to hold milk replacer and continue with electrolytes. The diarrhea is bright red. I have aureomycin and penicillin on hand but am afraid to give it. I don't want to make things worse! Please help

 

[msscamp]

You need to call your vet - ASAP!

 

[milkmaid]

Bright red diahreaa... he may survive, he may not. Be prepared for not. It could be a perforation inside is causing internal bleeding, or it could be just that his intestines are extremely raw and inflamed... but I've seen several calves with severe scours and never seen one with bleeding like that, so I'm inclined to think it's something else.

Ditto to what msscamp said... call your vet.

 

[Alice]

stop the banamine!

Try this...I won't guarantee anything, but it's worth a shot.

Mix the milk replacer thus...half and half...that means half milk replacer/half water...which means cutting way back on the water, but at this point you have nothing to lose. If I knew what your milk replacer called for, I'd have a better idea...but right now the calf needs nourishment as well as electrolytes.

You're gonna need to go on a funny feeding schedule...milk replacer...about 2 hours later, electrolytes. Wait about 3 hours then begin the routine again.

Because you have no idea what's going on, then, were it me, I would go ahead and give the calf nuflor. And, as always, give that calf probios at every feeding.

Do not withhold the milk replacer...stop the banamine!

Banamine, like antibiotics, is hard on a calf's gut. Pump in the probios. Bloody scours can be a result of straining...which a calf does when it has scours. Yes, it's also a symptom other things, but for right now...stop the banamine.

And, absolutely, call your vet!

Alice

Edited due to my screw up at being unable to copy and paste into another post...dangit!

 

[milkmaid]

Because you have no idea what's going on, then, were it me, I would go ahead and give the calf nuflor. And, as always, give that calf probios at every feeding.

Nuflor is hard on a calf's gut too. It kills the intestinal flora, which can be fixed by probiotics, BUT, there isn't an awful lot of good in giving probiotics at each feeding when there's a theraputic level of antibiotics in his system. The good bacteria get killed just as soon as they start doing any good.

Fourstates - why are you afraid to give the antibiotics? most of the time, electrolytes and fluids alone are not enough to stop scours, especially not in a severe case. I still think there must be something more going on than just scours though. Fresh blood is not a good sign.

 

[msscamp]

Because you have no idea what's going on, then, were it me, I would go ahead and give the calf nuflor.
Alice

Think about what you're saying here, Alice. The very LAST thing I would do with a calf with bloody diarrhea - especially bright red bloody diarrhea - is give antibiotics of ANY kind.

 

[Alice]

I have seen calves in this shape...the amount of sale barn bottle babies that came thru here...oh yeah, I've seen 'em.

Nuflor is extremely hard on a calf's gut...ergo, the probios! What can the probios hurt...it can only help.

And the banamine can act as overdone aspirin on a human's gut...it can cause bleeding...or so says the vet that I trust...can ya' believeit, I actually have a vet that I trust.

And so far, no antibiotics have been given...so a dose, especially in this situation, can't hurt...since this calf is going downhill fast. It's a $%@# if ya do, $%@# if ya don't situation.

Alice

 

[Alice]

One other thing...if that calf is still alive in the morning, I'd be pumping corrid down it.

Alice

 

[msscamp]

This isn't a salebarn calf. What if it isn't coccidiosis? What if it's an esophageal ulcer that has ruputured due to the tubing, or an esophageal tear? You've now wasted time, money, and aggravated the condition by additional, unneeded tubing treating a problem that does not exist. She needs to call her vet and find out what she is dealing with here. Then, and only then, can it (hopefully) be dealt with effectively.

 

[Alice]

I believe I agreed to that...whole heartedly.

And when and IF she gets hold of a vet...and if she can't then what else is there? I still think the banamine is having an extreme detrimental effect. I could kick myself for indiscrimmentely using the banamine the way I did.

Alice

 

[fourstates]

I've seen the vet, he thinks it's ecoli. He gave me Baytril, sulfa bolus and 60 cc of injectable antibodies. (new one on me). and one more dose of banamine. That's the 4th dose in four days. I know it's rough on the GI system, but it's good for pain. I don't think it's a esphogeal tear, cause I am careful, but it is a struggle! I use pam cooking spray as lube.
Upper GI blood would look dark or like coffee grounds in the stool. Bright red blood is the lower GI. I am going to give him more electrolytes in the AM. I try the bottle again in the afternoon. He is bright and alert, knock kneed in the front, bowlegged in the back. He hates me.

Do any one have any tricks or ideas to help sooth his gut, since I can't (won't) give any more banamine or aspirin?
Thanks.

 

[milkmaid]

Pepto bismol.

 

[milkmaid]

Why do you say you won't give asprin? :???:

What type of injectable antibodies did he give you (brand name?) and how are they supposed to be given?

 

[hillsdown]

I've seen the vet, he thinks it's ecoli. He gave me Baytril, sulfa bolus and 60 cc of injectable antibodies. (new one on me). and one more dose of banamine. That's the 4th dose in four days. I know it's rough on the GI system, but it's good for pain. I don't think it's a esphogeal tear, cause I am careful, but it is a struggle! I use pam cooking spray as lube.
Upper GI blood would look dark or like coffee grounds in the stool. Bright red blood is the lower GI. I am going to give him more electrolytes in the AM. I try the bottle again in the afternoon. He is bright and alert, knock kneed in the front, bowlegged in the back. He hates me. Quote<< four states



Ecoli::and ask most Docs is not detected by bloody scours.That is why it is the silent killer it is clear runny scours and usually by the time you figure it out it is to late.If your vet thought it was ecoli and the state of the calf he/she would have done an IV.Pam cooking spray has teflon which is deadly to some animals and causes reactions to others.You don't need to do anything to the feeder but make sure it is sterilized.

 

[fourstates]

I didn't see the brand, but the bottle listed just about every disease I usually vaccinate against. I think it was Duravet Antibodies for a whole long list of bacteria, including ecoli, several type of diarrhea. I am going to find out more about it. I injected it subq divided by four, it was a huge dose.

I just think aspirin would be just as hard on a sore gut, worse maybe, than any injectable drug. I will be more careful using these antiinflamatory drugs, but I sure hate to see them in pain. This may explain why I had trouble getting him to take a bottle, I was making some progress and now I'm starting from square one.

When you use antibiotics and kill the bacteria, sometimes the dying bacteria release toxins which are worse than the infection. That why I was scared to use what I had at home. I am still not sure that this won't happen.

The more you nurse these babies, the more attached you get to them. I am trying hard to rise above this weakness.

 

[hillsdown]

The more you nurse these babies, the more attached you get to them. I am trying hard to rise above this weakness.

Don't, it is not a weakness you have to try how could you not.It does make the heart hurt when they don't make it.But the ones that do are all worth it.Keep trying you may figure something out that none of us knew;and keep us posted good or bad.I feel for you have been there, too many times this year and it sucks.

 

[milkmaid]

When you use antibiotics and kill the bacteria, sometimes the dying bacteria release toxins which are worse than the infection. That why I was scared to use what I had at home. I am still not sure that this won't happen.

True... but not every type of bacteria releases a fatal sort of toxin, and of the ones that do, more problems can be caused by allowing the bacteria to continue multiplying (remember, they'll all die anyway at some point!) than by giving antibiotics and nipping the problem in the bud before you get an excessive amount of potentially fatal bacteria.

 

[fourstates]

Wanted to let you all know that the calf seems to be doing real well. He has had no more diarrhea, no more blood and even smells better. He has been walking around his pen quite a lot today. I worked several times to try and bottle feeding, but I can only get a few onces at a time. He is getting stronger and heavier. I hated to finally tube him again, but he's gone to bed with 2 quarts of warm formula in his belly. He's only had 2 quarts of electrolytes this am and two quarts of milk replacer tonight. I don't think I was able to more than 6-8 ozs in him thru the bottle over the whole day.

I have seen pelleted milk for foals, do they make something like this for calves? I will keep trying the bottle, but I am feeling wore out!

BTW, we had our first heifer out of 13 bull calves, she's beautiful and healthy, and her momma knows her job. I won't even walk in the pasture with the same shoes I wear in the barn.

 

[msscamp]

I have seen pelleted milk for foals, do they make something like this for calves? I will keep trying the bottle, but I am feeling wore out!

Milk replacer pellets are one ingredient in Purina's Calf
Starter, but a 4 day old calf is not able to chew them and will sort them out. The calf needs to be liquid milk replacer for at least 6 weeks, and I would suggest longer.

 

[gendronf]

I hated to finally tube him again, .

For the small calf I grind the ball of the feeder. I took off the 1/3. It's very easy to tube feed and dont hurt the calf. If you are use to tube feed, I would strongly recomend you to grind that ball. Finish with a smoot sand paper to get the ball polish.

Marcel