Blind Quadrant

[inyati13]

Heifer calved this week ( Early Friday). I noticed the calf would suck the right front teat but that quadrant never went down like the other three. Also, she would kick (raise her foot, move away from the calf, etc.) when the calf tried to suck. I put her in the squeeze chute to see if I could figure out what was wrong. I could not get anything out of the right front teat. I tried to insert a teat cannula. It would go in about 1 to 2 inches and it was totally blocked.

I bought her as a bred heifer in November to calve at the end of January - she did. Not one from Rocking P Livestock (for those that might guess about that). I have no idea whether the breeder coulda, shoulda, woulda known. I have talked to the vet's office. Seems it is not uncommon. Vet said it is usually due to calves sucking each other which results in adolescent mastitis which may go unnoticed.

Now the question. Her other three quadrants are working and yesterday I noticed she was picking up a little more mass in her bag. The calf to my astonishment seems to be pretty clever for a one day old because yesterday, he was not wasting his time on that teat. But I wonder if she is going to keep up with him on the three live quadrants? Do most of you cull a cow like this?

 

[dun]

Depends on if it keeps her from rasing a good calf and only time will tell that.

 

[jerry27150]

have seen some two teated cows produce more milk than a 4 teater. if you check anyones herd you will find a lot of cows with only 2 or 3 teats working

 

[alisonb]

If you can't treat with intramammary infusion perhaps give her a course of antibiotics intramuscularly to make sure mastitis clears and does not affect other quarters, the effected quarter may even heal successfully.

 

[snake67]

No milk quarters

First - is it really mastitus? Is the hole blocked from an injury that has now healed?

Second - calf may not hit that quarter until later - there may actually not be a problem that cannot be "sucked" out

Third - if she does OK then leave it be - sometimes neglect is the best thing.

Fourth - maybe it is a small hole and it will take longer to suck out - let the calf work it - and there will be times that it will work that quarter even if there is no milk coming - and trust me it will work them all as it gets older and is looking for more.

Fifth - I would never recommend doing what you did - sticking things in tits has a habit of making things worse in the long run

I could go on - however - is the calf doing well?

If it is relax and go on to something else. It is all good. Toss the cow later if it bugs you.

If the calf is not doing well - then and only then - intervene.

Life is good - best to all

Bez

 

[inyati13]

No milk quarters

First - is it really mastitus? Is the hole blocked from an injury that has now healed?

Second - calf may not hit that quarter until later - there may actually not be a problem that cannot be "sucked" out

Third - if she does OK then leave it be - sometimes neglect is the best thing.

Fourth - maybe it is a small hole and it will take longer to suck out - let the calf work it - and there will be times that it will work that quarter even if there is no milk coming - and trust me it will work them all as it gets older and is looking for more.

Fifth - I would never recommend doing what you did - sticking things in tits has a habit of making things worse in the long run

I could go on - however - is the calf doing well?

If it is relax and go on to something else. It is all good. Toss the cow later if it bugs you.

If the calf is not doing well - then and only then - intervene.

Life is good - best to all

Bez

Thanks, Bez. Your first point, what I see and feel- I have squeezed the quadrant that is not producing milk, I have seen mastitis- she does not currently have mastitis. I am as sure as anyone can be of anything on that. Read my message again, I did. I mentioned mastitis because the vet's assistant said past cases of mastitis can cause a quadrant to go blind. I am trying to be sure that I help you help me here. It could well be due to a past injury, infection, etc.

Your second point, right on, today the calf was sucking that quadrant as hard as the other three. But although I am on your side that sticking a cannula into the orifice of the teat and inserting it into the duct work is not what you want to be doing (I know some microbiology, it just cannot be done sterile, in fact not even in the best operating room in hospitals, microbes are just too evasive), I knew something was not right and I want to get her in the chute and find the problem and solve it. I promise you, that teat has no open milk duct. I pushed hard and that is not what I wanted to be doing. I rotated the cannula and pushed it in several different directions. It would not go in. And know that I milked her till she kicked and nothing came out. I am very skeptical that the calf is going to "suck out the problem". But I sure hope it does.

I will cover 3, 4 and 5 like this, first, I agree that there is risk of sticking anything into the teat. I have the SS cannula with the two orifices and I keep them soaking in isopropyl alcohol. I cleaned her teats with a wipe. But I got to be honest. It is impossible to really maintain a sterile environment when it is 16 degrees and your outside dealing with a non-sterile subject. I dropped the cannula once, picked it up wiped it on a terry cloth and used it. I hate to admit that! Now the good part. This calf is hoping around like a bunny rabbit, tomorrow he may be dead but right now he ranks as one of the most energetic calves I have had. Mom is fine. They are in a nice clean environment with lots of clean hay for bedding. I am not worried as long as he is doing well. Again, you are right, he is working on the blind quadrant. I trust you on that one as seeing is believing.

The only thing that concerns me is to make sure he is getting enough out of the other teats. As someone mentioned above, 2 or 3 teats is maybe all she needs. For a heifer (she is a skunk back which makes me partial to her), she had her first calf unassisted. He is a nice bouncing bady calf and both seem fine. If the calf gets enough milk, her residence will continue to be the best place any cow ever had.
Thanks again Bez.
Life is good and the best right back to you from the heart, my friend.

 

[glacierridge]

Blocked duct?

I had a friend who had this unfortunate experience in herself...
She said it was very painful and she had to keep trying to get it worked out.

Maybe ask the vet if that's a possibility.
Not sure, but who knows.

 

[chippie]

using a betadine solution as a teat dip before and after would be better than alcohol.

 

[Lucky_P]

I have one like you've described. Calved out as a 2-yr old with one front quarter that you could feel the entire teat canal just being a mass of scar tissue. She raises one of the best calves every year, on 3 quarters. No way in heck that I'm gonna try shoving a cannula up through that mass of scar tissue and risking the almost certainty of causing mastitis in that quarter. If it ain't broke, I'm not gonna try to 'fix' it.

 

[milkmaid]

I've seen a couple calve in at the dairy with either a blind quarter (no milk in it) or blocked teat canal (milk in that quarter but it cannot be milked out). Either way it's not a problem for the cow - don't open it unless you really want to deal with mastitis. (And, keep in mind that if the cow has mastitis in a quarter the calf is nursing off, he will transfer it to the other quarters.) We had one a few years back that calved in with both front quarters blocked. She milked every bit as well as the normal cows. Missing a quarter doesn't justify culling a cow by itself. However, if that blocked teat is large enough to confuse a new calf so that it won't get adequate colostrum -- that would justify culling the cow.

 

[inyati13]

Today was the fourth day. Calf has high energy level. He runs, jumps, plays, explores, etc. Friendly for a newborn but she is nervous when I play with him. Her bag and teats look fine. The calf is certainly still sucking on the blind quadrant. Mom is doing very well. She passed her afterbirth the first day. I saw her eating it. I keep her with fresh water. She has plenty of hay and I am giving her beef mix. I appreciate all the comments and the good news I took away from the comments posted by Lucky_P and milkmaid. If I had known what I know now, I would have left well enough alone. But I could not have known without doing what I did. The question this raises is, how do you determine a quadrant is blind w/o doing a probe? I don't mean to probe through the blockage. Thanks too, chippie for your suggestion.

BTW, I have used those teat cannulas before on the advice of others to drain the bag if there is concern that the bag is too tight. I am taking from this that there is more risk of causing more problems than you are curing by doing that!!! Comments.

 

[snake67]

Today was the fourth day. Calf has high energy level. He runs, jumps, plays, explores, etc. Friendly for a newborn but she is nervous when I play with him. Her bag and teats look fine. The calf is certainly still sucking on the blind quadrant. Mom is doing very well. She passed her afterbirth the first day. I saw her eating it. I keep her with fresh water. She has plenty of hay and I am giving her beef mix. I appreciate all the comments and the good news I took away from the comments posted by Lucky_P and milkmaid. If I had known what I know now, I would have left well enough alone. But I could not have know without doing what I did. The question this raises if I have have this occur again with another heifer, how do you determine a quadrant is blind w/o doing a probe? I don't mean to probe through the blockage. Thanks too, chippie for your suggestion.

BTW, I have used those teat cannulas before on the advice of others to drain the bag if there is concern that the bag is too tight. I am taking from this that there is more risk of causing more problems than you are curing by doing that!!! Comments.

First - STOP playing with the kids - best to leave them alone.

Second - forget trying to check tits all the time - if the calf is sucking and alive and lively it is doing well - leave it to Mom and stay out of the picture.

Finally - yes - leave their tits alone - if you have a quarter that is not working there are still three more.

Too much handling is not a good thing - look at them and let them live their life without what appears from your signals here - far too much interference.

Someday this might just cause a good Mom to pound the living he ll out of you - even the quiet ones can do this - and there is no way in God's green earth you can out run her if she wants to eat you for breakfast - or - she might very well leave that calf for YOU to raise.

Be aware these are animal that you will kill and eat - raise them right but stop playing with them - trust me - you have been warned.

Mother Nature and God have been doing this long before you came along - and they will be doing it long after you and I are dust in the ground.

My best

Bez

 

[Lucky_P]

I've seen (and had some) cows with really persistent teat plugs that have necessitated VERY vigorous squeezing(milking) to get the teat orifice open. No way a normal newborn would have ever gotten any milk out of those teats; if you weren't looking closely, you'd have thought, 'Well, that calf's nursing well - everything's OK.', but if you weren't watching to see those quarters getting milked out or the calf's belly getting full, you'd have gotten an ugly surprise a few days down the road, when the calf depleted its fat stores and crashed - or developed septicemia.
I do everything in my power NOT to stick a cannula or teat tube up in that teat orifice, but sometimes it's absolutely necessary.
On my 3-teated cow, I could palpate a thick plug of scar tissue filling the teat canal, and knew that I could not open it.
Couple of years back, I had an older cow calve out with three blind quarters, and the one remaining teat was so big that the calf wouldn't nurse it. Fortunately, I had another cow that had just lost her calf, and she readily accepted the new calf, and ol' one-tit took a ride to town.

 

[inyati13]

Today was the fourth day. Calf has high energy level. He runs, jumps, plays, explores, etc. Friendly for a newborn but she is nervous when I play with him. Her bag and teats look fine. The calf is certainly still sucking on the blind quadrant. Mom is doing very well. She passed her afterbirth the first day. I saw her eating it. I keep her with fresh water. She has plenty of hay and I am giving her beef mix. I appreciate all the comments and the good news I took away from the comments posted by Lucky_P and milkmaid. If I had known what I know now, I would have left well enough alone. But I could not have know without doing what I did. The question this raises if I have have this occur again with another heifer, how do you determine a quadrant is blind w/o doing a probe? I don't mean to probe through the blockage. Thanks too, chippie for your suggestion.

BTW, I have used those teat cannulas before on the advice of others to drain the bag if there is concern that the bag is too tight. I am taking from this that there is more risk of causing more problems than you are curing by doing that!!! Comments.

First - STOP playing with the kids - best to leave them alone.

Second - forget trying to check tits all the time - if the calf is sucking and alive and lively it is doing well - leave it to Mom and stay out of the picture.

Finally - yes - leave their tits alone - if you have a quarter that is not working there are still three more.

Too much handling is not a good thing - look at them and let them live their life without what appears from your signals here - far too much interference.

Someday this might just cause a good Mom to pound the living he ll out of you - even the quiet ones can do this - and there is no way in God's green earth you can out run her if she wants to eat you for breakfast - or - she might very well leave that calf for YOU to raise.

Be aware these are animal that you will kill and eat - raise them right but stop playing with them - trust me - you have been warned.

Mother Nature and God have been doing this long before you came along - and they will be doing it long after you and I are dust in the ground.

My best

Bez

Bez, I take what you say in good spirit. I will make it real clear; I have more of a role in my cattle's lives than probably 99.999 % of all the people in the world. Whether you call it interference or not is another matter. But interference is an adjective that is agreeable to me. Now let me point out the flaws in your points. First, way before me, Homo sapiens injected themselves into the natural order of things. If we strictly followed your directives would people have dogs, cats, snakes, rodents and all order of other vertebrates in their homes. Should we have a dog in a kennel and let them raise their pups w/o petting them? Think about this, I only pet my cows but humans hoist themselves upon the back of a horse and direct them where to go - and Bez how far is a horse from a cow on the evolutionary scale. They are both ungulates, have common ancestors and very similar evolutionary histories. For that matter, cattle are riden in some parts of the world. Should people stop showing cattle because that is too much interference in the life of the cattle being showed. How natural is it to put a halter on a cow and make it walk around in a ring so everyone can look at it. Should I let my Blue Heeler ride in the front of the pick-up with me? I like you and find your messages interesting so don't think I am shooting words back at you because you hurt my feelings. He ll you couldn't hurt my feelings unless you could strike them with a baseball bat. :lol: I love mental entertainment. This is entertainment, as everything on here mostly is, right? But you are taking on a tough arguement that man should not inject himself into the natural order of animal life. We already done that when we domesticated them. I will concede that from a strict business sense, you have a better chance of supporting your thesis, but consider who you directed you comments to. The person you are directing them to would not even own cattle if it were not for the pleasure that person gets out of interacting with them. I spend almost all my time on my farm. Either maintaining and developing the property or playing with my cattle. I pet every cow I have. I pet my bull. I may get killed or injured doing it, but I doubt that I will stop. They are very much like having a dog or a cat for me. I have found that there is no animal I could ever have that I love as much as a cow. They are the epitome of peace, contentment and gentleness. For those characteristics to come in the size they do makes it all the more wonderful. I know people are killed by cows, bulls, probably even calves. But I think you would agree w/o a moments pause that statistics will demonstrate that people kill and harm far more people every year that cows do. Boy this is getting too long. It is now your turn, my friend. :nod:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Just curious. Lucky_P or others may know.
I thought it was common for dairymen to "open" a blocked quarter with some type of sharp/cutting tool?? Is this something from the "past" and not done anymore?

On the 3 quarters issue - my 13 year old donor cow has been 3-quartered since she was 2-years old and has never affected the health/growth of her calves. Don't know why she lost a quarter, don't care. "Most" cows will do just fine with 3 quarters. I think they "make up" the difference by producing more in the workings quarters. May be a fantasie, but seems that way. A cow will produce more milk the more her quarters are drained - of course, to a point. A poor milking cow won't magically start giving more milk just because the calf is asking for it. But, if she is a good producer, she'll fill up fast.

 

[dun]

Just curious. Lucky_P or others may know.
I thought it was common for dairymen to "open" a blocked quarter with some type of sharp/cutting tool?? Is this something from the "past" and not done anymore?

Still common around here but it depends on the situation/problem. If a cow cuts a teat badly it;s common to use a cannula to milk her.

 

[chippie]

It really is best to have a hands off approach with the calf, especially if it makes the cow nervous. She could blow up on you on a heartbeat.
It doesn't matter if she was the friendliest of the bunch before she calved.

 

[inyati13]

It really is best to have a hands off approach with the calf, especially if it makes the cow nervous. She could blow up on you on a heartbeat.
It doesn't matter if she was the friendliest of the bunch before she calved.

I agree with that and I understand the warning Bez is giving. It is not a difficult concept. There is risk in some of the things I do around the cows. I know it and go from there. The thing I do that will probably get me injured, is standing among the cows while they eat. They push each other and if I am not paying close attention, a cow will come sideways toward me when some big cow on the other side of her gives her orders to move. When I pet my cows, I sense their bodies for movement. I watch what the cows head is doing. I have been around my cows doing this so much, that I know them, their moods, their expressions in the form of body language, etc. If I am scratching a cow at the head of the tail, I pay attention to her mood to signal if she has a kick reflex coming. I have been among my cows everywhere they go. I have laid out in the pasture with them on a pretty day. Especially when they go to shade near a creek on the farm. That is pure bliss for me. I sometimes even lean against a couple that I trust the most. I know, I am beginning to commit the sin of anthropomorphism which is placing human characterisitics on a lower animal. When I use the word "trust", I know that reflects human character and lower animals may not hold to the principle of trust. But horse people and dog people develop trust with their animals. I can do things with my dog Blue that would get someone other than me biten. I am much more firm with Blue than I am with the cows. My heifer, Star, for instance responds to mild discipline where Blue responds only to very firm discipline. Thus, I have cows that I trust more than others. I acknowledge the risk involved in my relationship with my cows. But there is risk in rotary mowing my pasture. I cover some steep terrain on my farm that seasoned tractor people tell me they would not go over. I use a chainsaw, I drive a car, I go over and across steep terrain with my utility vehicle, I climb structures, do electrical wiring, welding, etc. All these things have a level of risk. BTW, I have seen cows like you say, blow up. When I first started 3 years ago I pressured cows too hard, it took me a short while to learn if you just let them decide to do what you want them to do, they will do it 95 times out of 100. It is amazing how that works. I never hit my cows, with a couple exceptions. I do carry aheavy short stick when I am working a cow with a new calf. I have hit a cow that just had a calf and I thought she was putting me in danger. I struck her on the crown of the head where her horns would be. That is a very heavy part of the cranium as it has to be to carry horns (even though they are polled, the bone structure has not changed), thus, it does not do harm but that stopped her and she broke the way I needed her to.

 

[Lucky_P]

Yep, still done in some situations, but I'll be danged if I'm gonna do it on one of my beef cows.
Sure, if it's a dairy cow that I'm depending on to produce milk - and I'll be seeing her in the parlor 2-3 times a day, it's one thing; a beef cow that I'm unlikely to get my hands on again without some finagling, I'm not going there.