Best Feet/Worst Feet Angus Bulls

[talltimber]

This is an area that it is hard to find info on due to the liability issues I guess. It's a shame. I've asked the same or similar question in the past, with little to no results. Anything that could be detrimental to sales, and not covered by epd's (for what they're worth), are hard to find answers for, for me, unless it's a local cowman that's had personal experience with that line, which is few. I had a hard time finding any non-epd info that would turn me away from a line. By design I suppose.

 

[inyati13]

This is an area that it is hard to find info on due to the liability issues I guess. It's a shame. I've asked the same or similar question in the past, with little to no results. Anything that could be detrimental to sales, and not covered by epd's (for what they're worth), are hard to find answers for, for me, unless it's a local cowman that's had personal experience with that line, which is few. I had a hard time finding any non-epd info that would turn me away from a line. By design I suppose.

The intimidation strategy is effective. Everyone employs it because it WORKS.

In reality, the threats are idle. But works because people are cautious, i.e., Ebenezer. It makes more sense to keep your mouthshut than risk the expense of litigation.

Truth is those threats are ACTS OF INTIMIDATION.

 

[Air gator]

Maybe it would be more productive to highlight Angus bulls with good feet.

I have never heard anything negative with regards to feed on Connealy Thunder. His son, TC Thunder, is promoted for his good feet. Any other bulls promoted for good feet?

At what age do calves/cows start showing problems with their feet?

 

[Son of Butch]

A few top Angus bulls that I have NOT heard feet issues about include:

EXT
Nichols K205
Final Answer
Connealy Thunder
Rock D'Ambush

War Party - - anyone care to add more to this list?

 

[frieghttrain]

He's not top but Tc Thunder.

 

[Air gator]

SAV Angus Valley was ranked 24th in registrations with 1,225 calves in 2015. Is that because cattlemen are jumping on him because of his epds or because of positive word of mouth?

 

[Ebenezer]

Some bulls I would not care to use (not saying why!!) are Traveler 6807, Rito 6I6, most (but not all) of the short and thick type of one specific sort of linebred herd that used/uses 6807 a lot, Hunts Calculator, Alberta Traveler, Cedric of Wye. Some bulls that I thought were good at the time and from the pool I might use one or two again are Paramont Ambush, Vance Top Dawg, Summitcrest Pfred, Rito 2RT2 and others that you have not heard of or cannot access. Just saying.

 

[angus9259]

Serious question. Would it be a safe assumption that a bull who is six years with sound feet and still an active herd bull is more than likely passing that trait to his offspring?

Most feet and leg traits are only around 15% heritable so that makes poor structure hard to get rid of in the gene pool. If his genetics are stacked with good structure on both sides of his pedigree then it should be fairly reliable. If there are a few corrective matings in there then he himself may be very correct but have some calves with poor structure, especially if mated to cows with questionable genetics for type. Think of foot and leg traits like a "grandpa's nose" trait. How many families do you know of where two beautiful people can produce a kid with a schnoz that makes you think they're lying from day one just like great grandpa so and so. It can take generations of breeding to the ideal to get all of the faults bred out.

Interesting. I had a TERRIBLE year one year with GDAR Game Day. Better than 2/3 of the bulls had toe issues. If this is true than it's more likely that it wasn't Game Day but something environmental that year?

 

[Ebenezer]

If this is true than it's more likely that it wasn't Game Day but something environmental that year?

Was the feed a hot ration?

 

[angus9259]

If this is true than it's more likely that it wasn't Game Day but something environmental that year?

Was the feed a hot ration?

Same as always. In fact, they only get a pretty docile wheat mid creep while on their mommas then on grass between 6 and 18 months. I was furious about about the potential that Game Day could have done it, but if the heritability is that low it seems odd. Of the calves I had off him I think I only managed two "breeders" - one bull and one heifer - both of which I sold. The heifer still looks good but the bull got screw claw by 2-3 years.

 

[angus9259]

an old angus bull named traveler used to get a bunch of AI use around here. They all had a bad way of going to me.

Use of Band line will give you some crab claw type hooves. Doesn't mean that they will develop a problem but it has a look.

There are some bulls and herds to avoid but to name them creates a slander potential. Until the AAA takes steps, you need to ask around in person or develop a talking relationship with a hoof trimmer, breed rep, a judge or somebody who knows. Well known herds and AI companies sell semen on bulls that need to be avoided.

I think the slander potential only exists for making blanket statements about a particular bull. To say "I wouldn't use that bull" or "that bull did THIS in my herd" or such things - isn't much of slander - just facts.

 

[inyati13]

If this is true than it's more likely that it wasn't Game Day but something environmental that year?

Was the feed a hot ration?

Same as always. In fact, they only get a pretty docile wheat mid creep while on their mommas then on grass between 6 and 18 months. I was furious about about the potential that Game Day could have done it, but if the heritability is that low it seems odd. Of the calves I had off him I think I only managed two "breeders" - one bull and one heifer - both of which I sold. The heifer still looks good but the bull got screw claw by 2-3 years.

You are referring to the 15% number posted above, i.e., that 15 % of foot form and function issues are genetic which implies that 85% of foot form and function issues are environmental.

Bigfoot has described it well many times, in Kentucky where the ground can be like play dough half the year and hard as concrete the other half, where terrain can be steep and rocky, etc. breeders select for good foot structure. I was recently talking to Roy Canada about the nice feet on a heifer I bought from him last year. He said "we breed for that".

The 15% number seems low. Even in the short time I have been doing this, I see foot structure following genetic lines. My cows all live in the same environment, some have great feet, others could be better.

 

[Ebenezer]

15% is pure genetic inheritance factor for an individual animal. If you cull some and select some then you are not just using the genetic factor alone.

the bull got screw claw by 2-3 years.

Pretty sure that it has been said on CT that this condition is a genetic issue that feed will not affect. I would run like the wind from whatever bull brought that into a herd and cull every calf.

 

[cow pollinater]

15% is pure genetic inheritance factor for an individual animal. If you cull some and select some then you are not just using the genetic factor alone.

15% is just the factor on the first mating. IF you stack your genetics then the inheritance becomes much more probable.

 

[angus9259]

15% is pure genetic inheritance factor for an individual animal. If you cull some and select some then you are not just using the genetic factor alone.

15% is just the factor on the first mating. IF you stack your genetics then the inheritance becomes much more probable.

That's what I'm wondering. I really don't stack matings and the dam side of my Game Day experiment was pretty diverse. I certainly have used other sires w/o the feet problems I had with Game Day. That said, @ 15% heritability, the odds that Game Day would have done that with that frequency is pretty low.

Also, at 15% heritability, selecting for good feet becomes a real crapshoot and nearly impossible task.

 

[Son of Butch]

15% is pure genetic inheritance factor for an individual

15% is just the factor on the first mating. IF you stack your genetics then the inheritance becomes much more probable.

I really don't stack matings and the dam side of my Game Day experiment was pretty diverse.

Matings became randomly stacked in a manner allowing Game Day to expose the fault, even though you did not do a planned stacking. Game Day must have been a carrier and you must have had many other carriers in your diverse herd.
Low inheritance is the reason it has taken aaa so long to address feet.
The low hanging fruit of high inheritance is the smart way to start, but at some point completely balanced programs
need to account for the low inheritance traits to keep improving the breed even though it is a more difficult slower process.