Best Feet/Worst Feet Angus Bulls

[Air gator]

If you read a lot of posts on this site then you will come across a lot of complaints about bad feet.
I am not an expert on feet but just curious which bulls or pedigrees do you trust for feet and which bulls/pedigrees do you avoid?

 

[inyati13]

If you read a lot of posts on this site then you will come across a lot of complaints about bad feet.
I am not an expert on feet but just curious which bulls or pedigrees do you trust for feet and which bulls/pedigrees do you avoid?

Gator, do you know Rocking P? Chan and Keith Phillips. In this area, they are right up there with the Boyd Cattle Company. Chan is a National level show judge. He has judged several times at the National Stock Show in Denver. He has told me that foot form and function are a primary focus of their breeding. They have Angus and Simmental but are better know for Simmental and Simangus.

That has rubbed off on me. I like big feet, enough heel, good claws. I know it when I see it but not good yet at describing it.

Werner War Party is known for good feet.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Serious question. Would it be a safe assumption that a bull who is six years with sound feet and still an active herd bull is more than likely passing that trait to his offspring?

 

[inyati13]

Serious question. Would it be a safe assumption that a bull who is six years with sound feet and still an active herd bull is more than likely passing that trait to his offspring?

I will take a shot at that Dad. First, what data do you have on his off-spring? Any retained bulls or heifers to gather information from - create a track record? If not, then all you have is the bull. If his feet are still sound, have good form and function, then that is all you have for data. Beyond that, you have no basis for speculating on whether his good feet traits are inheritable.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

We've retained some heifers over the short 4 years he's been with us an I'm growing out 6 bull calves born in 2015. I haven't noticed any issues.

 

[inyati13]

We've retained some heifers over the short 4 years he's been with us an I'm growing out 6 bull calves born in 2015. I haven't noticed any issues.

Look at their feet. I have learned a lot from Kris. I know it when I see it. Others can jump in here and describe what to look for. You don't want them walking on their tip toes. I like some size to their feet. Help!!!

 

[Air gator]

inyati13,
I don't know the Phillips but I am sure that I could learn a lot from them.
I think Simmental have a little more foot to work with. I had some Fleckvieh cattle some years ago.
If you have a great cow with bad feet can you a calf with good feet by using a top bull (for feet)?

 

[Bigfoot]

I cross over in to the performance horse world. Feet, legs, movement-------They are of the utmost importance imho. Doesn't matter how nice the package is, if it's not going to stay sound, you don't need it around. If you absolutely know, that your pursuing a terminal cross, I still hesitate to say it doesn't matter as much. That 12-1300 pound steer still has to navigate the feed lot, and walk on the kill floor.

I'll add, an old angus bull named traveler used to get a bunch of AI use around here. They all had a bad way of going to me. I'm not up on the pedigrees of stuff that's out there now, cause it's not my thing. I do know common sense tells me "no feet no horse!!!"

 

[inyati13]

inyati13,
I don't know the Phillips but I am sure that I could learn a lot from them.
I think Simmental have a little more foot to work with. I had some Fleckvieh cattle some years ago.
If you have a great cow with bad feet can you a calf with good feet by using a top bull (for feet)?

Yes. You could also get a calf reflecting the cow's bad feet. It is a function of random probability resulting from the sorting of chromosomes and ultimately the genes. If you have a great cow with bad feet, it seems worthwhile breeding her to a bull known for improving feet. I have the same scenario in my herd. A Hudson Pine/Rocking P cow with outstanding phenotype and genotype except the outer claw on both back feet tends to get longer and turn up at the end. Not screw claw. I clip the claw when necessary in the pasture. I am retaining her first heifer this year. Heifer is very nice. I don't see any bad signs yet on the heifer. I bred her back in December to Grandmaster who is known for good feet.

For Angus, Werner War Party is known for sound feet. May not want to use him on a small framed heifer.

 

[Air gator]

Bigfoot,
I agree with you about the ability to move. Select Sires seems to be pretty good about posting videos of their bulls so you can see them move. It's not the same thing as being in the pasture with them but you can see how they move.

 

[Ky hills]

I have a 3 Angus and a couple BWF cows with bad feet. I don't know what line or lines it may come through, but I do think it is very inheritable. Of the 3 Angus, there is a mother and daughter, and each of them has had calves with as bad or worse feet than them. Once I realized the feet issues, I have just been considering them as commercial cows, and not using their calves as breeding stock.
I agree BF with issues of some bad footed cattle holding up through being finished. I am currently feeding out a bull calf from one of those afore mentioned cows, his walking ability is getting worse, but I think he will hold up till finish.

 

[Ebenezer]

an old angus bull named traveler used to get a bunch of AI use around here. They all had a bad way of going to me.

Use of Band line will give you some crab claw type hooves. Doesn't mean that they will develop a problem but it has a look.

There are some bulls and herds to avoid but to name them creates a slander potential. Until the AAA takes steps, you need to ask around in person or develop a talking relationship with a hoof trimmer, breed rep, a judge or somebody who knows. Well known herds and AI companies sell semen on bulls that need to be avoided.

 

[inyati13]

an old angus bull named traveler used to get a bunch of AI use around here. They all had a bad way of going to me.

Use of Band line will give you some crab claw type hooves. Doesn't mean that they will develop a problem but it has a look.

There are some bulls and herds to avoid but to name them creates a slander potential. Until the AAA takes steps, you need to ask around in person or develop a talking relationship with a hoof trimmer, breed rep, a judge or somebody who knows. Well known herds and AI companies sell semen on bulls that need to be avoided.

For anyone to pursue a slander charge against a person providing commentary on a bull regardless how negative would be beyond frivolous, it just would not happen. Becomes even more farfetched when you provide the commentary on a forum in a non-professional environment.

Unless you have personal reasons, I hope you would guide us away from bulls that IYO should be avoided.

 

[cow pollinater]

Serious question. Would it be a safe assumption that a bull who is six years with sound feet and still an active herd bull is more than likely passing that trait to his offspring?

Most feet and leg traits are only around 15% heritable so that makes poor structure hard to get rid of in the gene pool. If his genetics are stacked with good structure on both sides of his pedigree then it should be fairly reliable. If there are a few corrective matings in there then he himself may be very correct but have some calves with poor structure, especially if mated to cows with questionable genetics for type. Think of foot and leg traits like a "grandpa's nose" trait. How many families do you know of where two beautiful people can produce a kid with a schnoz that makes you think they're lying from day one just like great grandpa so and so. It can take generations of breeding to the ideal to get all of the faults bred out.

 

[Bigfoot]

What do we talk about, if we can't talk about cattle?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

What do we talk about, if we can't talk about cattle?

Politics and religion of course.

 

[inyati13]

What do we talk about, if we can't talk about cattle?

I don't get it! We can talk about cattle. In fact, the title of the forum encourages talk about cattle. Under what circumstances might we not be allowed to talk about cattle?

Must be something clever you are pulling here. :hat:

I think you and I used up all our allowance on religion yesterday.

 

[Ebenezer]

an old angus bull named traveler used to get a bunch of AI use around here. They all had a bad way of going to me.

Use of Band line will give you some crab claw type hooves. Doesn't mean that they will develop a problem but it has a look.

There are some bulls and herds to avoid but to name them creates a slander potential. Until the AAA takes steps, you need to ask around in person or develop a talking relationship with a hoof trimmer, breed rep, a judge or somebody who knows. Well known herds and AI companies sell semen on bulls that need to be avoided.

For anyone to pursue a slander charge against a person providing commentary on a bull regardless how negative would be beyond frivolous, it just would not happen. Becomes even more farfetched when you provide the commentary on a forum in a non-professional environment.

Unless you have personal reasons, I hope you would guide us away from bulls that IYO should be avoided.

Maybe you have not had that threat from an owner before. Dull story: I waited until a well promoted AI bull was 12 or 13 YO to try him due to some genetic background issues I knew about that was not printed. Someone local told me that they had proven calves by him , the daughters were great, the sons did well to sell as heifer bulls but watch SC, ... BUT if you put any of them on feed for much time they will founder ASAP and be ruined. I knew one of the owners and also knew that they had a big link into another upcoming big sale in another state. There were a lot of sons in the upcoming sale and the bulls were fed a hotter ration. So I asked about the feet. From both farms/ranches in both states came blistering correspondence that I would be sued if I kept spreading rumors to impact sales and sale prices. So, I can do without any more time in court and let it drop. But it turned out I was right!

 

[UG]

If you read a lot of posts on this site then you will come across a lot of complaints about bad feet.
I am not an expert on feet but just curious which bulls or pedigrees do you trust for feet and which bulls/pedigrees do you avoid?

Like you, I too have concerns about bad feet in cattle. There are a variety of feet issues including long, outside toes on the back beet, toes curling inward on the front feet, little or no heal depth on back feet, etc. A few top Angus bulls that I have not heard feet issues about include:

EXT
Nichols K205
Final Answer
Connealy Thunder
Rock D'Ambush

 

[inyati13]

Ebenezer,
I appreciate being cautious.

Select Sires agents don't bad-mouth Genex bulls and vice versa. That is professional business ethics. In a professional environment business ethics plays a role.

On a forum where none of us are acting in a professional paid role, say what ever you want about a bull. People exaggerate the occurrence of frivolous law suits. The courts do a good job filtering out frivolous law suits.

In addition, evaluations are arbitrary and subjective at best. They are statements of opinion. Quantum Leap won almost every showing last year but I know people who think the bull is awful.

Hard to prove damages when someone is offering an opinion.

I respect your reservations.

PS: A charge might have merit if the damaged party could show that you willfully with the intent to damage sales spread false information about an animal consigned to a upcoming sale. Threats of a suit/charge are common place and are used all the time. Having a case that has merit is a horse of a different color.