Beef Cattle Industry - The Last 25 Years - What Happened?

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To those who don't know, to be "straightbred" Anxiety 4th, an individual animal has to trace back to the cattle owned by Gudgell and Simpson 100%. If an animal has a single ancestor that doesn't trace back to Gudgell and Simpson's herd, they are NOT straightbred. The Anxiety 4th Breeder's Association used to issue certificates, just like registration certificates, for those animals that qualified. The Association's last secretary (that I'm aware of) was John Montgomery, who lived in Town Creek, Alabama - if I'm not mistaken. I suspect he still has all the records in his possession.

George[/quote]

There is plenty of controversy about this. Many breeders contend that some animals were allowed in the Anx. 4th registry that did not actually descend completely from the G&S herd. That is one reason many breeders of Anx. 4th cattle quit registering in the anx. 4th society. Really not a big deal except that very few true Anx. 4th cattle remain. I have been studying the old line 4ths for some time. As far as I know, there are only 4 people that have any true straight G&S cattle.
 
handydandy":11ei2yf5 said:
Herefords.US":11ei2yf5 said:
To those who don't know, to be "straightbred" Anxiety 4th, an individual animal has to trace back to the cattle owned by Gudgell and Simpson 100%. If an animal has a single ancestor that doesn't trace back to Gudgell and Simpson's herd, they are NOT straightbred. The Anxiety 4th Breeder's Association used to issue certificates, just like registration certificates, for those animals that qualified. The Association's last secretary (that I'm aware of) was John Montgomery, who lived in Town Creek, Alabama - if I'm not mistaken. I suspect he still has all the records in his possession.

George

There is plenty of controversy about this. Many breeders contend that some animals were allowed in the Anx. 4th registry that did not actually descend completely from the G&S herd. That is one reason many breeders of Anx. 4th cattle quit registering in the anx. 4th society. Really not a big deal except that very few true Anx. 4th cattle remain. I have been studying the old line 4ths for some time. As far as I know, there are only 4 people that have any true straight G&S cattle.

I'm curious who those "many" breeders are, since only a handful Anxiety 4th breeders existed past the early 80s. Most of the breeders started using outcross bulls to keep up with the trend, which was what led to the association becoming irrelevant. Lack of support.

But you're right -there aren't many straightbred Anxiety 4th cattle left! The only ones I'd be almost 100% sure about now would be Jim Lents cattle. Leland Wallace had some that would certify and some that would not. I know about the oversight as well. There were/are a very few breeders that have some certificates to cattle that shouldn't qualify - but they all trace back to a single Rancho Lilac bred bull, if what I've been told by the purists is correct. A mistake was made. Knowing the integrity of the people involved, I would bet on it being an "honest" one. And truthfully, at this point, I'm not sure it is even relevant. It's about the same as arguing which pronunciation of a Latin word is correct now.

George
 
KNERSIE":1nrhfkc2 said:
OK Doc I'll take the bait!

Starting from left to right.
strong short masculine head with good horn, although the horn could be thicker around the base.
prominent muzzle
good eye set ( notice the lashes pointing downward)
short strong masculine neck with well developed neck vein
heavy muscling on the fore-arm
looking at the cannon bone he looks a little too fine boned for my liking
excellent balance with very deep chest and a low hind flank
pigmented scrotum of decent size hanging at the optimal height
long hip and very good tailset
muscling carrying low down on the gaskins
Don't like the hind legs, but I think thats just the artists impression.
note the smooth covering of fat all over the body and the "waste" in the brisket. It is this covering of fat that made the herefords of yesteryear king of the range and was used as a reserve during times of drought.
Overall a bull that looks to be in balance hormonally and one that I would expect to breed true to his phenotype.

Do I pass or fail?
KNERSIE- Well done. You pass. I will present my observations after I eat dinner.

DOC HARRIS
 
Hello, Knersie --

Do I detect Jan Bonsma in your observations?

I grew up reading his books, and continue to be heavily influenced by his work.

Best,

Aubracusa
 
Having had dinner, and watching a terrific PBS TV Program called "Celtic Women", I shall attempt to organize my thoughts and present them to you all regarding Anxiety 4th. It is said that "What Goes Around - Comes Around!" A couple of weeks ago, or so, there was a thread here on CattleToday involving the Aubrac Breed of Beef Cattle. I must tell you, I was and am very impressed with the cattle presented on the posts here, and perhaps it represents a need which fits today 's Economic and Market situation, what with Ethanol commencing to utilize the corn and other grains so vital to some of the beef cattle with which we are concerned today. In the era of Anxiety 4th, grass and roughage were the 'Catch Words' of the day, and heavy feeding of corn for ALL beef cattle was at a minimum except for Show Strings. I feel that grass and roughage is again going to be the very primary force with which the Beef Producer will be involved, and a breed of cattle which will function well and finish with little grain may be the salvation of the Beef BU$INE$$ as most breeder's would prefer seeing it! Keep an open mind. We might keep in mind the returning of the type and image of BEEF cattle that Aubrac bulls are presenting. Don't think that I am self-serving - I have no cattle at the present time, and have no ax to grind!

The image of Anxiety 4th depicted here on the Forum is NOT a photograph, but a painting, therefore has probably been "idealized" somewhat, but we can discuss what we see here in this image.

Here is an example of an extremely optimal BEEF bull! Attempting to ignore all pertinent information in evidence concerning this individual and his historic background is almost impossible, but the purpose of analytical judging is to report what one sees.

The bull depicted here is a fine example of a mature Horned Hereford Bull. It is hard from what is pictured here to determine what his Frame Score would be, but I will say it is more or less 5.0. (That gives me a little leeway for error!) He has a strong, "breedy" head, (needs more color around the eye), moderate crest, a strong, level top line ending at a smooth level tail setting. He shows great depth of body from front to rear, carrying down optimally in the rear flank. He appears to have a desirable spring of rib, and deep heart girth, equaling his top line length without being paunchy. He has a long, level rump from hooks to pins, balancing well with not only his structure at the mid-line point, but in separating him into "thirds" from neck length, body length, and rump length, he seems to fit the pattern well. As mentioned above, he displays a moderate crest, but for a bull of his size and age I would like to see a heavier crest indicating more male hormones present ( potential fertility). He has a short neck, indicative of libido and early maturing daughters. He possesses a heavy jaw, and course, curly hair indicating masculinity and presence of testosterone, and a balanced Endocrine system.

He appears to have adequate testicular size. He shows a deep hindquarter, but I would prefer to see more "rearward or posterior" bulge. This view precludes determining his width of body and rump. His shoulder size is only adequate, and seems to be a little straight in the upper leg and shoulder. His feet are hidden by grass, but I would look for more bone size because of the overall size of the bull. His pasterns, however, appear strong enough for his size. Again – this could be artistic prerogative on the part of the artist. He does not appear to be sickle-hocked or cow-hocked. His stifle area is well-muscled above the rear flank and carrying well down the hind leg. His front cannon bones are appropriately shortened resulting from male hormones stopping growth of the 'long' bones. His Hereford color pattern is characteristic, noting the absence of color around the eye(s), said color helping to alleviate 'pink-eye' problems, and fly infestations. All mentioned 'breed characteristics' are in relation to economic value and efficient beef production.

Anxiety 4th Genetics, if in balance with his obvious Phenotype properties, was, and could continue to be, an asset to Hereford breeders by reintroducing dormant or quiescent genes to the common gene-pool – assuming minimal undesirable characteristics are not Homozygous. Crossbreeding protocols could benefit exponentially as well! It might prove tantalizing to explore the antecedent's of other different breeds in order to determine genetic and phenotypic possibilities! It should be mandatory to explore the CURRENT marketable requirements prior to committing possible damaging protocols to the breeding herd of the beef industry which might negatively influence the beef production environment.

The hypothesis that "going back" genetically and using genetics from animals popular in years past is an interesting syllogism, but to be feasible and expedient in a profitable and realistic breeding program, ALL possible Genetic and Phenotypic alterations should be given every consideration before arbitrarily assuming that optimal results will ensue from rather unorthodox breeding policies. In My Opinion, it is an exciting option to consider, nevertheless considerable attention should be given to all aspects of the procedure prior to implementation.

DOC HARRIS
 
J&T Farm":18a6odif said:
Not really impressed with your fancy thoughts. Sorry.
That's okay, J&T. I didn't really express the thoughts to impress anyone - just my opinions, and not too fancy at that!

DOC HARRIS
 
J&T Farm":2swxxw34 said:
Not really impressed with your fancy thoughts. Sorry.

So J&T, tell us your thoughts on the bull in question. Since you're not impressed with Doc's phenotype analysis, I'm curious to hear your own.

Rod
 
Doc and Knersie,

Interesting observations of the Herford Bull.

I'm not seeing the masculinity your talking about...very soft. Very little sexual development.

My experience there is not enough muscle there to hold up in the cold and short grass country where we run.

What you say sound's good, just don't see it in the picture.

Knersie...I don't like the leg set either...if the hormones are working right a bull of this age should muscle up pulling those leg's under him a bit more.

Maybe I'm to critical of a painting.
 
While researching the old lines of cattle, I spoke a few people that said the painitings changed the actual look of the animal. The head is made smaller. The bones or skeletal structure is reduced in size. If you want to compare Anx. 4th, it is probably better to look at photographs of his descendents. I believe there are pics starting with Prince Domino that will give a good approximate look of Anx. 4th. There may be a copy at the hereford association. If I had a copy I would post it. Anyone out there with copies of direct descendents of Anx. 4th?

I believe the main reason Anx. 4th was popular was he put a rear end loaded with muscle on his descendents.
 
looking at the placement of the sheath in this painting I think we can get a good idea of just how much artistic license was used.

I don't think fat neccesarily means soft, but I do know that an animal that fattens easily will do better than most leaner types on short grass and brush.

I think there is enough masculinity and to see how much muscling there is behind the fat is impossible, so the next best thing you can do is look at the usual indicators of muscling, ie the fore-arm, length of rump and how low the muscling carries on down the hind leg. The rest is just a guess from what can only be described as a very idealistic impression of a great bull. not neccesarily a great painting or a very realistic one
 
Prince Domino 499611 - I believe is has at WHR and 15 years old in the picture.

Prince_Domino_499611.jpg
 
I am no Hereford breeder but I know what I like and I would have to agree with Doc on this one.

The bull isn't masculine enough for me, maybe it's the painting but I would like to see that " look " in his front end and not be so common. I don't like the depth through his flank this is simply fat and doesn't carry enough "beef" to it. I would guess if you stood behind him he is flat sided. The roundness carry down his quarters is no more than fat.

"true" muscle bulls don't get as deep flanked as this picture but I don't think that all animals should look like a limo either. Each to their own breed truthfully.

Right wrong or indifferent that's the way I see it.
 
Crystalized":2dy8itpe said:
I'm not seeing the masculinity your talking about...very soft. Very little sexual development.

My experience there is not enough muscle there to hold up in the cold and short grass country where we run......Maybe I'm to critical of a painting.

I think we are drawing too many conclusions from the painting. The bull is in the pedigree of MOST Herefords in the world. His descendents, many linebred DID hold up in the cold, the Texas heat, and the Arizona desert. Within thirty years of his passing his descendants both commercial and registered were everywhere. As a breeding bull who has had an effect on the cattle industry, it is very difficult too come up with a single sire who had a greater impact on the American beef industry. IF we could clone him and bring him back today; would he even be noticed??? Would he be as influential or would he be used at all??? To me, a bull is judged by his calves once they are on the ground and his were phenomenally popular, his sons apparently got out there and bred their cows, and his daughters apparently impressed the cattlemen of the day enough that they kept their daughters en masse. Whether or not somebody 110 years later likes his painting or not probably is not really relevant.
 
Herefords.US":1c3ru2ux said:
Bottom line - if cattle breeders haven't made some improvements in cattle in 125 years, it's probably time we ALL should give up!

George

I'm not sure we have made many great strides in 125 years. We've had the tiny cattle and the giant 8-9 frames, dwarfism and fertility problems, etc. Now it seems like many are realizing that moderation in all things is most profitable. --- Kind of like the anxiety 4th cattle of 125 years ago
 
Tom Underwood":2yn77bf2 said:
Prince Domino 499611 - I believe is has at WHR and 15 years old in the picture.

Prince_Domino_499611.jpg

I have viewed his tombstone/monument at WHR headquarters. If it was possible to clone an animal from a carcass, I'd vote to dig Prince Domino up!

Another great Hereford bull buried there is the "Lerch" bull (BLR C L1 DOMINO 5109) from more recent times.

Touring WHR headquarters is a worthwhile stop, if you're in the area. Lots of Hereford history took place there - not all of it was good!

George
 
Ok, Hereford History trivia question here and one I SHOULD already know (but probably forgot).....Prince Domino is sired by Domino; but the AHA has put no pedigree information up on Domino (264259) on it's web site. Have we somewhere LOST those old records or are we just too lazy to put them up on the web?
 
I agree that the AHA sight should have lots more pedigree information. It also would help if one could readily query for certain historic sires/dams, to udnerstand a more historic pedigree of an animal than can be contained in a several generation pedigree. A six-generation pedigree of Prince Domino appears on page 209 of Ornduff's "the Hereford in America." He was 25% Anxiety 4th blood. I've talked to old breeders and read "The Battle of Bull Runts," but I'd love to stop by WHR one day.
 

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