Beef Cattle Industry - The Last 25 Years - What Happened?

[Frankie]

Good post. Thanks for sharing.

 

[KNERSIE]

Very good post hereford.US

I agree that going back a few steps is very likely should one decide to go all the way with the old Anxiety 4th genetics, but under extensive conditions I feel they can play a role if infused into the modern cattle. What interests me the most is that the traits they've selected for was because of observation of what worked on the rangelands. That real stockmanship had been lost to a great extent and I believe we shall be worse of without that peasant wisdom to fall back on. It would be a great loss if there was no more cattle of that type left or for that matter breeders who appreciate the effort of those pioneer breeders.

I'm sure performance testing can improve growth and performance of A 4Th cattle, as long as the other desirable traits are not lost in the process. Infusing those genetics will be a very interesting experiment and more than likely will have an effect similar to the effect the big bulls had on the breed to help us get away from the ponies.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

my guess would be that when they line bred to get those cattle bigger in the early 80's that they picked up a few undesirable traits

a questionable statement. rarely does linebreeding result in a different type. it should result in a more consistent, average type. undesirable traits might be exposed in linebreeding but hardly ever "picked up"

the opposite (crossbreeding) might cause a change in type and undesirable traits.

I think I'll defend that statement. When the Herefords were bred up so quickly, they used bulls out of one herd almost exclusively (the name escapes me unfortunately. Domino ?). But at the time they did that, that's where those poorer traits showed up that have dogged the Hereford breed ever since. That's the problem with breeding for one trait (size, color, or whatever). If you are using certain bloodlines to obtain an end goal, there is always a risk of picking up a few negatives along the way.

 

[Herefords.US]

Hereford sat on it's hands. 'Hereford Beef' was not marketed like Angus beef was. Hereford breeders were slow too get on board AI and ET thinking it would hurt their bull sales business. Hereford was slow too embrace carcass EPDs. To this day, Hereford still has not added Angus EPDs like $EN, Mature weight, and Mature Height. Herefords have had too much of a show focus and not enough of a commercial cattle focus. Angus embraced the new technology to the point that ~half of Angus registered today are AI or ET bred. Too many Hereford breeders jealously guarded their genetics; wheras Angus breeders were selling semen off of their top bulls too commercial cattlemen for $15-30 a straw AND they still claimed most of Hereford's old bull business. Angus has had more of a commercial cattle focus. They claim that their calves bring more $$$ per pound (and at a lot of barns that is true), they pay feeders premiums for CAB accepted carcasses, and they have aggressively courted the extension agents and university professors. I remember when Auburn had a on campus university herd of registered Herefords, Angus, Gelbviehs, Limousins, and Santa Gertrudis's. They switched too straight Angus and were pretty public about doing it. I got snapped at hard recently by a University extension "expert" for suggesting Hereford as a mama cow alternative too Angus at a meeting a couple of years ago (ironically I had long admired his Grandfathers now dispersed pure Hereford herd 2 miles down the road from me for many years). Angus has outworked, out promoted, out thought, and out maneuvered the Hereford people at every turn and (EVERYBODY ELSE TOO) and we are rapidly approaching a solid black cow herd as a result.

I think the day of the straightbred commercial Hereford herd is fading away though there are still some die hards out there. That is why Hereford is promoting itself as the ideal cross to use on majority Angus commercial cows. Typically a Hereford x ANgus cross cow is going to be more prolific, hardier, and more productive than either a straight ANgus or a straght Hereford cow (when we are using the same quality genetics).

Great post! Posts like this were what I was hoping for when I started this discussion. Lots of good points! I'd like to address only a couple of them, at first.

Herefords have had too much of a show focus and not enough of a commercial cattle focus.

Interesting point! My goal is to produce cattle that will excel in the show ring as well as work for the commercial producer. I was under the impression that herds like Colyers and Barbers were doing just that. Am I wrong?

If the show ring standards are at odds with what is good for commercial producers, perhaps the show ring standards should be changed?

I honestly haven't noticed that conflict in the shows that I've attended. The judges have generally picked sound, growthy, and, yes, attractive cattle. But perhaps I'm naive or uninformed in what works for the commercial cattleman. I'd love to see more comments concerning this aspect.

Too many Hereford breeders jealously guarded their genetics

I think this is still occurring, but the end is nearing. The financial advantage of doing it will no longer exist. One thing that we smaller breeders can do is to simply refuse to play the game and find and use those bulls from those breeders that are keeping semen/cert costs reasonable. The new non-cert program is another step in the right direction. Also, enough interest in buying Hereford semen has to be generated before the Breeding Services will step up an invest in more good Hereford bulls. I noticed that ABS had added the Harland and Progress bulls to their lineup. Perhaps more good bulls will become available soon. Other's thoughts?

George

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This is one of the most informative posts I have had the pleasure of reading since I began contributing to this Forum! For one thing, I am overjoyed to realize that there are some very intelligent breeders who have their heads turned in the right direction, and know what they are doingl I have no 'constructive criticism' to offer to ANYONE who has partaken in discussing these problems here. I congratulate you all for your perception and intelligent manner of presentation.

To attempt to itemize the many motives, justifications and reasons for the demise of good, solid profitable beef cattle here would comprise a 'series' of books - suffice it to say that the Board Members who have alluded to the genetic changes which have transpired over the years in MOST Beef Cattle breeds are correct. And those changes have resulted in more disturbing variables than sensibilities should tolerate! Loss of natural immunity, inconsistent mating results, reduced percentage of homozygosity in MANY characteristics and traits, - - these are just a few of the genetic changes which have been propagated by the selection of genetic characteristics tending toward larger framed cattle which were dissimilar to that which proved successful AFTER the "Pony Type" fad was eliminated. The Hereford breed is not the only breed which has experienced this distressing metamorphosis. The Angus breed is, as we speak, suffering the pangs of differentiation and alteration of the 'Type' modification. Many breeders are traveling the path of "Reduced Birth Weight, Increased Milk Production, and, as a result, their seedstock is losing fertility in bulls and muscle reduction in BOTH bulls and cows. A few Angus breeders (Too Few!) are attempting to retain the traits and characteristics which the Angus Breeder's developed after the "Sunbeam" and "Pony Type" cataclysmic catastrophe was eradicated and wiser heads prevailed, the pendulum swung back toward larger-framed stock - and - unfortunately, In My Opinion, it has gone too far past the optimal point for the requirements of most markets, and now the practical-minded and profit-seeking breeder must find a way to "Stop The Bleeding" and codify the approach to raising profitable Beef cattle. I am convinced that these are the reasons many breeders are seriously planning and using practical and sensible crossbreeding protocols so as to stabilize their cattle operations and return to the production of good-doing, easily-kept and money-making beef cattle. It's time to eradicate "FUNNEL BUTTS"!

Just one comment regarding the question concerning show cattle and commercial programs. In the opinion of many breeders, Show Cattle phenotype and genotype and that which is optimal for the feedlot and rail are miles apart in desirability. The 'Show Babies' are prima donna's and not 'profitably' designed for the meat counter. The 'Terminal' feedlot cattle are designed for PROFIT and not for the tanbark.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

Doc,

Can you explain the sunbeam type for me please, I am not familiar with that term?

 

[Herefords.US]

Just one comment regarding the question concerning show cattle and commercial programs. In the opinion of many breeders, Show Cattle phenotype and genotype and that which is optimal for the feedlot and rail are miles apart in desirability. The 'Show Babies' are prima donna's and not 'profitably' designed for the meat counter. The 'Terminal' feedlot cattle are designed for PROFIT and not for the tanbark.

DOC HARRIS

Thanks for the good comments, Doc!

Regarding your comment above, I can only relate what I've seen from my experience. Since I started going to shows in 2002, I've seen the frame size of the show cattle generally dropping and they are getting thicker overall as well.

Moler, a bull discussed before here, was the Supreme Champion at the 2005 NWSS in Denver. There is a video of him at a young age here:

http://www.cattleinmotion.com/br/moler.html

To me, in the video, he very much resembles what the ideal phenotype of a fed steer should be (the difference in him actually being a bull taken into consideration) Am I wrong in that judgement?

George

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc,

Can you explain the sunbeam type for me please, I am not familiar with that term?

KNERSIE-

The "Sunbeam" term stems from a strain of Angus Cattle that was prevalent in the 1940's and early 1950's, and some of the significant bulls were "Prince Sunbeam 29th", "Master Prince of Sunbeam" whose registration number was 1,000,000, and others were "Prince" this and "Prince" that, and they were little, short, fine-boned, very short-legged, wide, dished heads, and attractive cattle in the show ring, but were "Pony" type, and JUST ABOUT destroyed the Angus breed as a BEEF breed! The excuse that was used was that the "American housewife wanted smaller cuts of meat!" The housewife didn't have a clue what she wanted, except kids, after 'Daddy' came home from WWII, and when the household filled up with people, the little "Baby Beef" meat cuts weren't big enough - so the Beef Breeders had to increase the size of their cattle and VOILA' - BEHOLD, here comes Continental breeds to save the day! And Holstein and other 'Milk' type breeds were 'mixed' in with Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn to achieve the size and milk production they were looking for, because the little Angus cows didn't have enough milk to grow out their calves adequately. The registered breeders used Holstein cows as "Nurse Cows" to supplement the Angus Dam's production. It was a pain in the Ka-Tooky to manage the calves and make sure that they received the milk volume that was required for their optimum growth. THAT was one reason that Milk EPD's became uppermost in the mind's of breeder's - but as with most "good things" it was overdone, and you have the situation that prevails with the industry today, particularly in the Angus breed. 'WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND", and usually it comes around and bites you in the butt!

:shock: Perhaps that is why many Angus today are lacking butts! :idea: :arrow: :nod:

In any case - that is what "Sunbeam" refers to, and God Forbid that it ever happens again!! IN MY OPINION - several of the very wealthy, 'Get-in-quick-get-out-quick' tax dodger breeder's should have been run through a CHUTE and de-horned and preg checked!

DON'T GET ME STARTED!

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

Thanks Doc, but I like it when you "get started" so please don't stop on my behalf.

 

[Herefords.US]

IN MY OPINION - several of the very wealthy, 'Get-in-quick-get-out-quick' tax dodger breeder's should have been run through a CHUTE and de-horned and preg checked!

DON'T GET ME STARTED!

DOC HARRIS

At least you held back just a little and didn't advocate castration as well, DOC! :lol:

George

 

[Tom Underwood]

I enjoyed reading George's post on Anxiety 4th Herefords. My "modern" Herefords account for 90%+ of my herd, and I am finally developing a herd that does well, albeit not as well as some of the top Angus programs in my area (Virginia). I have very few eye problems, no feet problems, almost no calving problems, and I am finding a market among commercial breeders of mostly Angus cattle that drive by my farm.

I have just begun with the 1950's and 60's cattle, but I am breeding to bulls that were considered large back then. I will certainly have more eye problems with these cattle, and I will have a lot less growth. I am performing the experiment to see if there are any traits from these cattle that can contribute to my contemporary herd. I am also doing the experiment to preserve the old bloodlines. Previous posts have noted that the old lines are disappearing, and I have chosen to maintain a small herd of historic bloodlines to preserve a part of Hereford history.

If the goal is to meet current market (i.e., feedlot and packer) demands, I agree that the historic Herefords probably do not have much to add. On the other hand, I am just beginning my experiment. I ai'd a bunch of half-sisters out of KCF Bennett 774 L153 to FHF Beau Rollo 33, HCJ Beau Rollo 60, KCF Bennett 3008 M326, and Kudzu this fall, and I'll know more at weaning in Spring 2008, and even more after ultra sounding in Fall 2008. My personal guess is that the progeny out of the old bulls will wean 50+ pounds lighter than the M326 and Kudzu progeny, BF will be ridiculously high, REA will be high relative to weight, but low in terms of absolute inches, and that IMF should be pretty good.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

IN MY OPINION - several of the very wealthy, 'Get-in-quick-get-out-quick' tax dodger breeder's should have been run through a CHUTE and de-horned and preg checked!

DON'T GET ME STARTED!

DOC HARRIS

At least you held back just a little and didn't advocate castration as well, DOC! :lol:

George

H-m-m-m-m-m - Well, I try to be nice, but - by George :shock: ;-) that is NOT a bad idea!

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

It would be interesting to see in Tom's experiment how much of the easy doing ability was because of the energy reserve stored in the backfat.

Can anyone tell from experience if the loss of easy doing ability coincided with the drive for lower bakfat?

in the eyes issue... from most pics I've seen the eye set of some of the old herefords was far better than herefords of about 10 years ago. In my part of the world eye banks and lashes plays a far bigger part in preventing eye problems than does pigment. I still wouldn't use a bull without pigment, because thats what my market demands, but pigment alone won't solve the problem.

 

[Herefords.US]

Anxiety 4th

I should take this opportunity to ask anyone that has information on any Anxiety 4th cattle that are still "straightbred" to e-mail or PM me with the information on them.

I have a friend that is trying to gather up some cows and preserve the bloodline. I know that he has been talking with Jim Lents, but Jim doesn't have ALL of the "cow families" in his herd that my friend would like to get.

My friend is not Internet proficient, but I promised him that I would do some searches and inquiries, then pass any information that I gather on to him.

Thanks!

George

 

[farmguy]

Two questions: are all line 1 Herefords horned? and where can I get more info on line 1 herefords. I was impressed by some. thanks

 

[DOC HARRIS]

With all of the commentary surrounding Anxiety 4th and the Hereford Breed recently, I would be interested in hearing the remarks and any criticism that the Board might be willing to bring forth in regard to Anxiety 4th himself. I understand that the picture shown here is a painting, and therefore is probably not authentically depicted - but do your best.

Judge this picture on Phenotype only, as we don't KNOW what his current EPD's would comprise. Analysize carefully!

Your answers will affect your Final Grade in this class! :?

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

I doubt there is anybody alive who remembers seeing Domino or Prince Domino when they were alive and in their primes and I am certain that nobody is out there with actual memories of Anxiety the 4th (1890s???). He looks overfat too me in the picture; but he is straight topped and deep ribbed with plenty of butt and muscle expression down the leg, and I like his head shape; but most cattle artists historically do such a bad job that I don't trust that that is really the bull. I trust the judgement of the cattlemen at the time that were convinced that these were the best bulls of their day and that their progeny was superior to their other options; but it is highly possible that the "wrong" bulls were retained and linebred. I am not being critical of the people who linebreed Anxiety the 4th, Victor, or Favre Domino or Domino the 13th (line 1 Herefords); BUT who has the guts too select a modern (last 25 years) bull and stake their fame and fortune on linebreeding the bull of their choice TODAY. Keynote is arguably a linebred Enforcer and some people linebred Nick the Butler (too their regret); but I don't see many people staking everything on their ability to successfully identify "greatness" and then linebreed it towards perfection.

 

[KANSAS]

This is by far the most informative and educated set of posts I have ever read in here. Wish we had alot more like this. Keep it up so us greenhorns can learn a little.

Thank you all...

 

[KNERSIE]

OK Doc I'll take the bait!

Starting from left to right.
strong short masculine head with good horn, although the horn could be thicker around the base.
prominent muzzle
good eye set ( notice the lashes pointing downward)
short strong masculine neck with well developed neck vein
heavy muscling on the fore-arm
looking at the cannon bone he looks a little too fine boned for my liking
excellent balance with very deep chest and a low hind flank
pigmented scrotum of decent size hanging at the optimal height
long hip and very good tailset
muscling carrying low down on the gaskins
Don't like the hind legs, but I think thats just the artists impression.
note the smooth covering of fat all over the body and the "waste" in the brisket. It is this covering of fat that made the herefords of yesteryear king of the range and was used as a reserve during times of drought.
Overall a bull that looks to be in balance hormonally and one that I would expect to breed true to his phenotype.

Do I pass or fail?

 

[Herefords.US]

Anxiety 4th was imported by Gudgell and Simpson in 1881, if I recall correctly. I agree that some artistic license was likely taken in this portrait and generally agree with the judgements that have been made about him.

Some of the earliest actual photographs that I've seen of American Herefords are reproduced on this web-page of the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair:

http://www.lyndonirwin.com/04beef03.htm

Looking at them, they really don't look THAT different from Hereford cattle today. But there was sure a roller coaster ride down then up in between!

Note that Gudgell and Simpson had the Reserve Champion aged bull and several class winners.

To those who don't know, to be "straightbred" Anxiety 4th, an individual animal has to trace back to the cattle owned by Gudgell and Simpson 100%. If an animal has a single ancestor that doesn't trace back to Gudgell and Simpson's herd, they are NOT straightbred. The Anxiety 4th Breeder's Association used to issue certificates, just like registration certificates, for those animals that qualified. The Association's last secretary (that I'm aware of) was John Montgomery, who lived in Town Creek, Alabama - if I'm not mistaken. I suspect he still has all the records in his possession.

George