Backwards calf problem?

[jasonleonard]

I got a phone call this morning from a neighbor lady who had a 1500# -fourth calf limmi cow....big calf trying to come azz-first, couldn't tell if calf was still alive.
I was on the road, so I told her to call a vet asap and I would get there as soon as possible to give them a hand.
Long -story-short.... she got upset(little older lady) and called in a trailer headed to an auction. The cow weighed 1550# and brought $89 a cwt.
Almost a $1400 cull cow, but I wish she would have let the vet try to do his work for a good young cow.
Have any of you cattlemen ever had much luck turning calves?, and what do you think of this ladies decision? Thanks.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I've never done it and I've never had any of my cows try to calve backwards. But I have seen sevarel people who are not vets turn a calf around and get them out alive, I would say it might have been alright. Are you saying she sold the cow with the calf still hung up? If so I think that was wrong in more than one way.

 

[jerry27150]

if the back feet are there, just pull it out. if the ass is there & not the feet just push in til you can get the feet pulled up & pull out. some cows have no trouble having a calf backwards, but if you are there you should hold calf up by back legs after you get him out to empty lungs

 

[WORANCH]

Jerrys right just pull the calf backwards, no need to turn it.

 

[regolith]

Exactly what Jerry said; I've done it a few times & getting on for being a 'little old lady' myself.
Depending on how long she'd been calving, the cow probably wasn't in any danger for waiting another hour or two. Culling the cow at that point just seems wrong on a lot of levels. She might have been a cull anyway after delivering a dead calf, but strictly speaking she's not eligible for slaughter till healed up from calving. Three to four weeks after calving is the guidelines I've usually been given.

Correcting a breech can be a little time consuming but it's not difficult, even if you've never done it before. The calf is pulled backwards once the feet are up, just the same as any other backwards calf... pull down till the hips show then fast, straight out (when the hips show the chest is constricted and the calf may try to breathe) and immediately lift the calf by the hind legs to drain the lungs (I'm small, so I usually lift where the hind legs are attached to the hips to ensure the head is off the ground).
I don't recall what proportion of my breech calves were alive/dead but within the last three years have had two, one live, one dead, both had shown signs of 'about to calve' the live one probably over fifteen hours before, the dead one seven or eight hours before I checked internally - with the bum coming first it's not uncommon for the cow to show no sign of being in labour.

 

[Lucky_P]

Breech presentation - butt first - is almost impossible for a cow to deliver - unless it's really small, or almost falling-apart rotten.
Hard to imagine being able to push one back in far enough to get the feet positioned without giving an epidural injection of lidocaine, but I'm sure folks have done it. Maybe you just need longer arms than I've got.
'Turning 'em around' - not necessary, and I'm pretty doubtful that it could be done. Once you get the back feet presented, you just pull them backwards - but be aware that once the umbilical cord is compressed in the birth canal, you're on borrowed time, so you need to be able to get the calf out fairly quickly, as its head will be the last thing out into the air.

Jerry, I used to hang 'em upside down, or swing 'em around to 'get the fluid out of their lungs'; not sure where I picked that up - I KNOW they didn't teach that in veterinary school - and now that I'm older...and maybe a little wiser... it's not necessary - and may be counterproductive.
Let's hang you (generic you) upside down, and see how easy it is for you to breathe! Really, though, hanging a calf will not 'clear the lungs' - taking a breath and inflating them pretty well takes care of any fluid that *might* still be in the mouth or trachea; prior to that first breath, there's not really any 'fluid in the lungs', as the potential air spaces are collapsed - until inflated.
No need to strain your back or get a hernia hefting a big, slippery calf up over the gate or stall divider - it doesn't do a bit of good for the calf; just let 'em breathe normally.

 

[jasonleonard]

Thank you all for your answers. The mother was shipped with the calf still in there.
To me, it sure didn't seem like the right decision.
I just hope the cow gets killed early Monday morning, to end the mess for her.
I brought this up, in case it ever happens to me.

 

[inyati13]

Thank you all for your answers. The mother was shipped with the calf still in there.
To me, it sure didn't seem like the right decision.
I just hope the cow gets killed early Monday morning, to end the mess for her.
I brought this up, in case it ever happens to me.

It may be the right action for the lttle old lady. It is her cow and she didn't break any laws. I would have wanted to do do something for the cow. The responses above provided good information. Based on what I read above, there was an appropriate action that has a good chance of helping the cow even if the calf were lost.

 

[piedmontese]

Surely the dead calf was pulled before she was sold. As you stated the lady knew it was backwards so obviously it was hanging out. I can't imagine any sale barn running her through the ring with a calf hanging out.if so she sure as hell wouldn't have brought .89.

 

[redcowsrule33]

You would be amazed what is going on with some of the cows that walk through a sale ring. If it's breech all that might stick out is some placenta and tail. These can be removed with the average pocket knife. Not saying it's right, wouldn't do it myself, but it is done.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

Yep, that was wrong IMO. What some people will do to get out of a small vet bill :roll:

 

[piedmontese]

At the sale barn I use when you take a cow in they are all pregged and it's marked on there side. This story has some bs to it. Let's say the cow did go through the ring with a calf hanging out,no way in hell it sells for .89. We all know they dock for anything and this sure would fall in to that category.surely the vet pulled the dead calf and then she sold. If she did go through the ring with a dead calf hanging out then everyone involved is a real p.o.s. that's the kind of thing that gives cattlemen a bad name.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

At the sale barn I use when you take a cow in they are all pregged and it's marked on there side. This story has some bs to it. Let's say the cow did go through the ring with a calf hanging out,no way in be nice it sells for .89. We all know they dock for anything and this sure would fall in to that category.surely the vet pulled the dead calf and then she sold. If she did go through the ring with a dead calf hanging out then everyone involved is a real p.o.s. that's the kind of thing that gives cattlemen a bad name.

That's right. I don't know if the vet pulled it out or not, but loading a cow that's trying to calve and sending it is pretty low in itself. If your not willing to take care of your cattle you shouldn't have any, I understand if the lady couldn't do anything herself but not trying to get someone to get it pulled, that's bad. I would be the last person to ever bring up animal cruelty, but IMO this is pretty close to it.

 

[alisonb]

I got a phone call this morning from a neighbor lady who had a 1500# -fourth calf limmi cow....big calf trying to come azz-first, couldn't tell if calf was still alive.
I was on the road, so I told her to call a vet asap and I would get there as soon as possible to give them a hand.
Long -story-short.... she got upset(little older lady) and called in a trailer headed to an auction. The cow weighed 1550# and brought $89 a cwt.
Almost a $1400 cull cow, but I wish she would have let the vet try to do his work for a good young cow.
Have any of you cattlemen ever had much luck turning calves?, and what do you think of this ladies decision? Thanks.

Good advice.... as an owner of an animal the 'little old lady' should have followed it through instead of dumping it on a trailer.

 

[regolith]

Breech presentation - butt first - is almost impossible for a cow to deliver - unless it's really small, or almost falling-apart rotten.
Hard to imagine being able to push one back in far enough to get the feet positioned without giving an epidural injection of lidocaine, but I'm sure folks have done it. Maybe you just need longer arms than I've got.
'Turning 'em around' - not necessary, and I'm pretty doubtful that it could be done. Once you get the back feet presented, you just pull them backwards - but be aware that once the umbilical cord is compressed in the birth canal, you're on borrowed time, so you need to be able to get the calf out fairly quickly, as its head will be the last thing out into the air.

Jerry, I used to hang 'em upside down, or swing 'em around to 'get the fluid out of their lungs'; not sure where I picked that up - I KNOW they didn't teach that in veterinary school - and now that I'm older...and maybe a little wiser... it's not necessary - and may be counterproductive.
Let's hang you (generic you) upside down, and see how easy it is for you to breathe! Really, though, hanging a calf will not 'clear the lungs' - taking a breath and inflating them pretty well takes care of any fluid that *might* still be in the mouth or trachea; prior to that first breath, there's not really any 'fluid in the lungs', as the potential air spaces are collapsed - until inflated.
No need to strain your back or get a hernia hefting a big, slippery calf up over the gate or stall divider - it doesn't do a bit of good for the calf; just let 'em breathe normally.

Every-one hangs them upside down, even vets tho' they might only be doing it because it's easier just to get it over with than tell the client it's not necessary...
You're probably right. The theory I heard was that a backwards calf was at risk of breathing fluid in on the way out tho' logic kinda says if they've done that, they're drowning and you can't tip it back out - but I lift them anyway because it's what everyone's always done.
The old practise of putting them up on a gate, I've heard it puts an incredible pressure on the organs doing that.

I think you'd be able to correct a breech without an epidural. I've done several, though not on beef cows. If you see a diagram of correcting a breech the arm is cupping the foot - that's completely impossible unless the cow and calf are both tiny, I've got to let the foot follow as I pull up the hock or even upper leg if I can reach it. It's not hard to push the calf forward enough to reach the legs. I'd rather have a breech than a head back or upside down calf, any day.

For some reason I was presuming the lady discovered it was a breech by internal examination of the cow - chances are there was no part of the calf hanging out when the cow was sold.
And inyati, in this part of the world it is breaking laws, but not the sort of laws anyone gets prosecuted on. What seems to be common practise in some areas of trucking a sick or calving cow to a vet is breaching animal welfare laws if done here.

 

[Lucky_P]

rego,
The weren't 'designed' to come out backwards - but we pull them that way, and I'm convinced that cows also deliver posterior presentations without assistance - but also suspect that a LOT of the apparently normal/perfect stillborn calves I see were probably 'backwards' deliveries that the cow just didn't manage to get out in time.

I've had, through the years, a number of posterior presentation deliveries that we got out alive - but died pretty quickly afterwards. I've often wondered - though I don't think I ever necropsied one - if the abnormal directional pressures exerted by a perhaps-too-rapid assisted backwards extraction might have caused a diaphragmatic hernia, resulting in the calf being unable to breathe properly and dying soon after delivery.

Thankfully, it's been years since I had to attend to a breach birth. Can't recall if I ever was able to repulse one enough to get the legs pulled around and presented without giving an epidural. I used to be pretty strong, but my arms were always pretty short. Never had one of those crutches Ken mentioned, but can certainly see how they'd be quite handy!

 

[dun]

A coupple of years we had a Hereford cow that didn;t come up to see what I was doing when I was working on the fence. Went looking for her and found her standing in the bottom with a dry tail haning out of her. Came to the house and called the vet and went down to work her up to the chute and she had delivered a dead bull calf. It was still folded up with it's hind legs underneath him just like he must have come out. The same year I had another cow that I saw a tail coming out first so I came to the hosue to get the caving stuff and by the time I got there she had just had it , same deal, legs tucked under it but it was still alive.

 

[jerry27150]

lucky, try grabbing next one by hind legs & swing around once or twice. should have a gush of slimey fluid come out. when they come out frontwards this all get squeezed out while head is lower

 

[bmoore87]

We have a few of these each year andthe main thing is getting to them early before the cow can get it pushed to far out into the canal on her own. For backwards calves we just pull as fast as possible since the cord will break with the head in the cow still. I had always hung them afterwards but was recently told by a different vets that that could make things worse if they have swallowed anything down into their stomach and it comes back up. They recommend lying the front shoulders up to the edge of a square bale with the head laying off the side so the through and nose can drain. Also give anti inflamatories for the lungs.

In regards to when they are breached you can pull without giving shots of any kind of numbing agent. Just push down on the calf's hind end between the cows pushes and pull the legs up one at a time. We go pretty slow with this so we don't hurt anything ( the last one took of about half an hour to get the legs up to be pulled between the cows contractions).