Average daily gain?

[tom4018]

What is considered a average for the "average daily gain"?
For example the average of your whole group of calves over a period of several years. Without creep.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

You're going to get a whole mess of answers here, as this varies on breed, crossbreeding, frame size, environment and type of grass.

Up here, with frame size 4 Angus and Shorthorns (and crosses), I average about 3 lbs/day on the cow. When I pull them off the cow, and begin feeding (1st cut alfalfa and 3 - 4 lbs of oats), I'll average about 3.5 lbs/day to 800 lbs. This average has been creeping up over the years though as I improve the herd.

Rod

 

[milkmaid]

So you're getting a better gain OFF the cow, Rod? That's interesting; any thoughts about a particular reason why? I usually figure calves grow better on the cow than off.

:???:

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

<chuckle> I thought it was that way for everyone? I know it is for my neighbors. I've always thought it was more efficient to stuff the feed into the calf, than to stuff it into the cow, then into the calf. It may be our grass up here too. We're wetlands, and as such, the summer grass is by and large water. The cows actually lose a little shape throughout the summer and start to gain back in late summer, early fall as the grass dries out a bit. I also specifically cull my commercials for poor feedlot performance. If a cow can't drop me a calf that at least maintains my average, they find a new home.

Something that will be misleading about those averages: After weaning, it takes the calves awhile to get growing good again and by the time they hit 700 - 750 lbs, they've hit full stride (at least on the ration I give them) and will be growing at around 4lbs/day. So that balances out the 2 or 2.5 lb/day gain between 500 and 600 lbs.

This year I'm going to creep my commercial calves (not my PBs though) since oats is so cheap. I'll see if I can eliminate or further reduce that post weaning drop off in performance. My target is to have 1350 lb Angus/Shorthorn cross steers that will be fed out in 12 months.

Edit: I re-read my original message and realize my ration statement is somewhat misleading. I start them on 1st cut alfalfa and 3 - 4 lbs of oats, but the oat ration slowly increases over time to a maximum of 10 - 12 lbs whole oats. When they hit the 8 - 9 weight mark, the oat ration changes to rolled barley (also cheap) and I'll gradually increase that to 20 lbs/day, taking care not to turn them into little butterballs. I don't feed out many steers around here, as I simply don't have the time or facilities.

Another edit for clarification: The performance stats I just put up are my crossbred (Angus/Shorthorn, Angus/Shorthorn/Simm, and Simm/Shorthorn) commercials. My purebreds don't match those numbers as they aren't fed much grain, just the 3 - 4 lbs of whole oats throughout the winter months, just to help them with the cold. I haven't been in the purebred business long enough to bother posting my averages as my gains are all over the place right now, and until I get some animals culled out and start using my own bulls, I won't get an idea what I can get out of them.

Rod

 

[Ryan]

This year I'm going to creep my commercial calves (not my PBs though) since oats is so cheap. I'll see if I can eliminate or further reduce that post weaning drop off in performance. My target is to have 1350 lb Angus/Shorthorn cross steers that will be fed out in 12 months.

Rod

We've been creeping our calves the same thing that they will get post weaning for a few years now. It has really seemed to help reduce stress and time off feed post weaning. I think you will reduce that drop in performance.

Ryan

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

We've been creeping our calves the same thing that they will get post weaning for a few years now. It has really seemed to help reduce stress and time off feed post weaning. I think you will reduce that drop in performance.

Many moons ago, I used to pull the calves off their mothers in the pasture, bring them in and start them on 1st cut alfalfa cold. The performance hit was terrible. For the last few years, I've been dropping bales of hay out in the pasture a month or two before weaning, and its helped out a great deal. I always meant to creep feed oats, as it pencils out up here, but just never had the time to make it happen.

Rod

 

[milkmaid]

<chuckle> I thought it was that way for everyone? I know it is for my neighbors. I've always thought it was more efficient to stuff the feed into the calf, than to stuff it into the cow, then into the calf. It may be our grass up here too. We're wetlands, and as such, the summer grass is by and large water.

I've always figured it's cheaper to keep a calf on a cow than to feed milk replacer, and cheaper to pull the calf and put it on grain than to keep it on the cow. However, I've also always figured I get a better gain from calves on the cow than calves off the cow and on grain.

You're figuring that you can raise them cheaper off the cow AND get a better gain, right? That'd be an intriuging thought, but that's different than anything I've ever figured when I check weights and then pencil out my ADGs.

 

[dj]

No creep. Average weaning age, on average pasture.
I would guess around 2lbs. Maybe alittle less.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

You're figuring that you can raise them cheaper off the cow AND get a better gain, right? That'd be an intriuging thought, but that's different than anything I've ever figured when I check weights and then pencil out my ADGs.

I get the feeling we're talking about different aged calves, and I should have been more descriptive. I won't pull a calf off a cow until weaning day, and never less than 500 lbs. I prefer to see 550 or 600 weights. No milk replacer needed as they're already going on solid feed. I've weaned calves at 400 lbs, and it just takes them too long to get going. So when you look at it that way, sure, the calves definitely do better on momma.

But once they hit weaning age, I think I can get better growth off the cow, with reduced inputs. After weaning, the amount of feed I need to stick in the pen of adults is just about half. Of course, some of that ends up in the calf pen, but the rest is forage savings. My calves seem to level off at that 2.5 - 3 lbs/day gain on the cow. I guess I could do an experiment and leave a calf on the cow until 7 weight and measure its performance, but I think that'd be awful hard on my small framed cows. And given that their growth seems to level off, I think what I'd be left with is a calf gaining at 2.5 - 3 lbs/day, versus the 3.5 lbs/day I get off the cow.

Milkmaid, are you also talking about Holsteins? If so, my smaller framed beefers likely don't milk heavy enough to get much more than the 2.5 lbs/day growth. My average is brought up by some heavy milkers that I suspect have some milking Shorthorn in their background and some bigger framed Simm crosses. I can see a big ol' heavy milking Holstein successfully feeding a much larger calf...

Rod

 

[randiliana]

Our ADG in 2004 was 2.60 lbs per day. Last year was better, but I can't find the records :x . What I have found since we weigh the end of Sept. and sell in mid Oct, is that the calves that are weighing over 600# by Sept do not put a lot of weight on in the next 2-3 weeks. But the calves that are in the 400-550 lb weight are still putting on a lot of weight.

 

[Dave]

For the last several years my calves have been hitting right at 3 pounds a day on the cows. I don't know what they do off the cows because they are weaned on the truck out of here.

 

[milkmaid]

Milkmaid, are you also talking about Holsteins? If so, my smaller framed beefers likely don't milk heavy enough to get much more than the 2.5 lbs/day growth. My average is brought up by some heavy milkers that I suspect have some milking Shorthorn in their background and some bigger framed Simm crosses. I can see a big ol' heavy milking Holstein successfully feeding a much larger calf...

Rod

Rod, yes and no. The cows are holsteins, but I'm trying to put as many calves on a cow as I can. I'm allotting 1 gallon or just a hair over per head per day. So yes these holstein cows are giving 5 gallons a day -- but one calf doesn't get all of it. A cow like that is feeding four calves. (And no, I don't creep feed my calves.) I figure your beef calves surely get more milk than that where they have everything to themselves. LOL.

I got a 2.48 ADG on my last set of holstein calves (weaned at 260lbs) on the cow. Had a 2.0 or 2.1 ADG (can't remember exactly) off a set I sold last fall (avg. 420lbs). One calf was about 50lbs lighter than the rest which brought the average down drastically. Off the cow, a 2lb ADG is nice, and sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't. I don't think I even get 2.5lb ADGs off 600-800lb weaned calves, although I sure wish I did.

Perhaps the fact that I'm weaning lighter calves than you are does have something to do with the post-weaning ADGs. I'm putting a lot of feed into those weaned calves though. Might be cheap, but it's still a lot of grain. I just find I can get better gains on the cow so long as she's milking as heavy as she's supposed to. (Have one cow with a pair of 9 month old, 600lb twins - she's not milking that well.)

 

[tom4018]

I was trying to compare my herd to others, calves off of cows are averagind a little over 2.5, our bottle calves were a little over 2.

Thanks

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Perhaps the fact that I'm weaning lighter calves than you are does have something to do with the post-weaning ADGs. I'm putting a lot of feed into those weaned calves though. Might be cheap, but it's still a lot of grain.

I'm probably not a good one to talk about feeding Holsteins, as I don't seem to have any success doing it. I used to buy a few steers every year from the dairy, and use milk replacer on them then switch them over to grain and forage, but I get poor gains. I always just thought it was the local dairy's breedstock not being up to snuff.

Do your early weaned calves get a little gutty? If so, what I do is knock the grain way back to just a taste, and feed them a low protein grass hay. I don't know if it'll work on Holsteins or not, but when I get a Shortie calf that starts gutting up a bit, I toss it into a separate pen all its own with grass hay. It seems to allow the bone structure to catch up, they stretch back out again, and in about a month, maybe two, they're ready to go back on a standard ration. It hurts ADG of course, but if you let them stay gutty, they just quit growing.

Rod

 

[milkmaid]

That's interesting. Always seemed to me I got the most "gut" - or potbellies - when I had them on little to no grain and just pasture or poor quality hay. But then again, there's always a few that make you scratch your head. Had one heifer that I pushed really hard (she's 1100lbs and 15 months) and while I wouldn't say she has a potbelly, she does have a weak topline and so she certainly "sags". I'm hoping that'll tighten up with a little more age. Her dam has a strong topline so I have to attribute it to something about the way I raised her. Can't help but wonder if it had to do with the fact that I kept her on a lot of corn and she was/is FAT.

And then I have a couple 5wts that I acquired at about 150, maybe 200lbs. They've only been getting grained at ~3lbs/hd/day all winter and some stemmy hay. Didn't feel like pushing them too fast or spending a lot of money on feed, and they look really nice. No pot belly on them. Prolly only got a 1.5 to 1.8lb/day gain on them though; have to pull out the calculator and check.

Have some that are slightly heavier (6wts) that are still on the nurse cow; I've gotten about a 2.03lb ADG on them, and they also look really nice. Cow's not milking real well, calves not creep fed, and while the calves don't carry a lot of fat, they're balanced and they've grown frame. I can put the fat on later with a good grain ration, but I'm pleased with the way they've grown. These 6wts are actually the same age as the 5wts, both groups look nice but the ones on the cow are just a touch heavier.

You ever notice that calves that aren't fed quite right may be stunted in weight, but if they've been fed that way for a long time their conformation is normal? No potbelly. Sometimes they'll look a little lighter boned, but otherwise you'd never guess that 400lb holstein heifer was actually 11 months old! :shock:

Based on what I've seen with some of the ones I've raised, I'm trying an experiment on a group of 200-300lb holstein calves. I'm going to try growing frame and not let them put on fat or excess weight. I want to see them grow UP, not out. And have very little fat cover over the topline or brisket. I want good gains but I don't want them fat. Right now they're on 3.5lbs/hd/day in a grain mix, plus free access to our alfalfa hay field. Calves that size don't even make a dent in the growing hay, LOL. I'd like to see them at 450-500lbs by mid August.

I figure cows are cows. You might be getting higher gains off your beef stock than I get off my dairy stock (well, I know you're getting better gains, LOL) but when comparing ADGs, I think we're sort of looking at similar things. So maybe I see a .5lb increase in ADG when I feed "x", and for me that brings the calves to a 2.5 ADG. For you that might make it 4lb ADG. But increases and decreases in weight gain...we're still talking about similar things, your numbers are just higher than mine. lol.

 

[mnmtranching]

Our calves at 7 mo have been wieghing between 6 and 7 without creep feed.

mnmt

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) You ever notice that calves that aren't fed quite right may be stunted in weight, but if they've been fed that way for a long time their conformation is normal? No potbelly. Sometimes they'll look a little lighter boned, but otherwise you'd never guess that 400lb holstein heifer was actually 11 months old! :shock:

2) I figure cows are cows. You might be getting higher gains off your beef stock than I get off my dairy stock (well, I know you're getting better gains, LOL) but when comparing ADGs, I think we're sort of looking at similar things. So maybe I see a .5lb increase in ADG when I feed "x", and for me that brings the calves to a 2.5 ADG. For you that might make it 4lb ADG. But increases and decreases in weight gain...we're still talking about similar things, your numbers are just higher than mine. lol.

1) Yes, I've definitely noticed with improper feed you can stunt a calf's growth and set them back so they never gain properly. Environmental conditions when they're lighter (under 400 lbs) seem to have an impact as well. On a year when we've been extremely wet during the spring/summer and the calves are young, I have more trouble getting gain out of them after weaning. I suspect that I'm not adjusting my ration properly in cases like this, since environment can't impact genetic makeup (that we know of anyway). The next miserable spring/summer we have, I plan on leaving the calves with the cows a little longer to see if that helps. I've also noticed that leaving the calves on the cows too long will hurt feedlot performance after weaning.

2) It hasn't been my experience that cows are cows. Since I've been closely involved with Maines, Simms, Angus and Shorthorns my entire life, I can say with confidence that the exotic breeds can handle a heavier ration before gutting, even if the frame sizes are equal. Just an example, my neighbor is heavily larger framed Simmentals, but he's still got some larger framed Angus animals around there as well. He needs to feed the Angus calves separately because they need a higher percentage of roughage to prevent gutting up. The Simms need a very high energy diet to put finish on them.

Back when I was using Simm bulls on my Angus and Baldie cows, I noticed that my grain consumption was considerably higher. I didn't necessarily see any more growth than I do with my Shorthorn sired calves, but I needed more energy to get the same gains.

Rod

 

[Stocker Steve]

What is considered a average for the "average daily gain"?
For example the average of your whole group of calves over a period of several years. Without creep.

Lots of the grazing studies show steer ADG in the 1.6 to 1.9 pound range with out supplement. Grazed weaned steers of the right size with the right backgrounding on good forage for a short period can do a 2 to 3 pound ADG - - but not over a long season.