Auburn Eating Contest @ 56 Days

[jscunn]

Mike,
Did you get the ultrascan numbers back yet??

BTW Congratulations on your bull so far I hope he keeps it up.

 

[Frankie]

Mike,
Did you get the ultrascan numbers back yet??

BTW Congratulations on your bull so far I hope he keeps it up.

Most bull test stations don't ultersound until the end of the test, 112 days.

 

[jscunn]

"Ultrascan" What an idiot I am!!! Kinda put together the terms ultrasound and scan data into one word!

Frankie the reason I asked is because I thought Mike had mentioned the heifers he took there to be ultrasounded, I assumed that the bulls were being scanned at the same time.

 

[MikeC]

Mike,
Did you get the ultrascan numbers back yet??

BTW Congratulations on your bull so far I hope he keeps it up.

Most bull test stations don't ultersound until the end of the test, 112 days.

Our bull test only lasts for 84 days. After much consideration and deliberation, the researchers at Auburn found that health was sometimes compromised on a 112 day test. (It was 112 days for years).

The heifers belonged to me, I took them because I only had one trailer load and helped with the Bulls while I was there. Craig usually comes by here but we set it up this way because of time constraints.

No. I have not gotten the data back yet.

Much thanks on my bull.

 

[Frankie]

Our bull test only lasts for 84 days. After much consideration and deliberation, the researchers at Auburn found that health was sometimes compromised on a 112 day test. (It was 112 days for years).

Manure. If a bull can't cut 112 days on feed, how do you think his calves will do in the feedlot? Which had you rather pay for feeding, calves from a bull gaining 5 lbs per day for 112 days or one that got sick at day 85, because those calves probably won't be finished at 85 days.

There was some research in Canada a few years ago that showed if you KEPT a bull on hot feed for two years, you might damage his feet, but who can afford to feed one for two years? I've never seen any serious research that says feeding a 8-9 month old bull for 112 days is going to hurt him. There are many test stations that have fed thousands of bulls for 112 days successfully. What usually drives people to opt for the shorter test is the fall off in ADG during the last 28 days. That's when the really good bulls shine, 84 days to 112.

With the genetics we have today, 84 days might be enough to sort the bulls, but the BIF still recommends the longer testing time.

 

[MikeC]

Manure. If a bull can't cut 112 days on feed, how do you think his calves will do in the feedlot?

It's certainly not manure. A calf in the feedlot isn't expected to go out and breed 50 cows a year either Frankie. :shock:

Feet are not the only consideration here. Rumenitis, which ALL calves get, to a certain degree, is not good.
The list goes on and on. It is very stressful to put a calf on full grain feed for any length of time.

The ration must be considered among many other factors.

Our test supervisor is on the BIF Genetics and Bull Test committee. You can bet she has done the research.

The Auburn test is the longest running test in the U.S. They have extensive data on how the bulls have performed in the pasture after the test for over 50 years.

And You're going to argue with them? :lol: That's funny.

I guess the next thing you're going to tell me is that sending a calf to a bull test is a good way to judge your herd? :lol:

 

[Badlands]

MikeC said "health".

frankie said "feet".

If an animal has good foot quality in a genetic sense, they can be fed a long time with no problems. If they have genetically poor feet, than longer periods of time on "hot" feed can hurt them.

In regards to "health", it should be no secret that overfed bulls tend to fail more BSE as yearlings than more optimally conditioned bulls, they tend to have poorer semen quality and serving capacity. They lose more condition their first year, and have to be pampered more to keep up. They may have decreased lifetime as well, though that one isn't completely documented yet. Overfed bulls experience more sickness, etc, too.

The bulls that continure to gain well after 84 days on a hot ration will be characterized as larger framed, heavier, higher growth, later maturing, with extended growth curves. They will produce daughters with larger mature size on the average.

Whether that is "good" or "bad" just depends on how you percieve the animals, relative to your own experience and environment.

In NY, more growth, extended growth curves and bigger cows might be OK. In MT, it might not be OK, or necessary.

At AU, they test for feed efficiency, with known intake. The latest research on that topic points to the fact that getting a handle on ADG is what makes test length longer. At this point, if testing for certain measures of FE, 70 days is recommended.

Badlands

 

[MikeC]

Badlands, I agree with you on the feet discussion. Bulls with genetically good feet will last through a 112 or even a 140 day test.

In the Auburn test we have a 28 day "warm-up" period before the test to allow the bulls to get used to eating out of their bunk only. This period is not included the data.

Most bulls are acclimated to the system in 2-3 days and eat full feed through that period and the remainder of the 84 day test. This added to 84 day test gives the calves 112 days on full feed.

This should be plenty of time to measure ADG, FE, etc. without overconditioning the calves.

During the "cool-down period" after the test they are given a percentage of their bodyweight. 2%, I believe.

The test is designed to provide the most healthy calves possible and be able to accumulate the data required by those concerned.

I was going to explain this to Frankie but she obviously knows nothing about a system that measures feed efficiency and tends to throw the "Manure" comment out at each possible opportunity. :lol:

 

[MikeC]

What's wrong Frankie? Are you becoming less argumentative in your older years? :lol:

 

[Frankie]

What's wrong Frankie? Are you becoming less argumentative in your older years? :lol:

If that fine teaching institute, Auburn, wants to change their bull testing rules to fit the bulls being raised by their cooperators instead of encouraging them to produce bulls that meet widely recognized industry standards, who am I to complain?

 

[Badlands]

There are no widely recognized industry standards for feed intake trials.

When they do come out, they will probably be from a low of around 70 days, up to a high of around 84 days.

Badlands

 

[Frankie]

There are no widely recognized industry standards for feed intake trials.

When they do come out, they will probably be from a low of around 70 days, up to a high of around 84 days.

Badlands

The BIF has set recommended standards for bull feed tests. From the BIF Guidelines for Uniform Beef Improvement Programs. There are different recommendations for testing on grass.

"8.1: Full-Feed Central Bull Tests

The following procedures and policies are specifically recommended for full-feed central bull tests:

There should be a minimum pre-test adjustment period of 21 days.
The minimum length of the test should be 112 days.
Test rations with 60-70% TDN (total digestible nutrients) on an as-fed basis should be fed free-choice.
BIF recommends that central test stations use the following formula for calculating Adjusted 365-Day Yearling Weight:
Adj. 365-Day Yearling Wt = (Final Wt - Birth Wt) * 365
Age (days)
+ Birth Weight
+ Weaning weight Age-of-Dam adjustment

Efficiency of feed conversion should be expressed as pounds of feed (as- fed) per pound of gain adjusted to a common body weight because weight differences affect feed requirements for maintenance. Appendix 12.5 contains a method for adjusting feed conversion values for differences in maintenance requirements associated with weight differences.
Full feed centrally tested bulls can benefit from a post test period (4-6 weeks) of reduced grain intake and exercise prior to cow herd exposure to facilitate optimal reproductive and performance efficiency."

 

[MikeC]

A bull test is nothing but a marketing scheme anymore anyway.

The big advantage a buyer gets is that the calf/calves chosen to enter are usually the best one(s) in a breeders herd.

 

[Frankie]

A bull test is nothing but a marketing scheme anymore anyway.

Then why do you bother to test ONE bull from your herd?

The big advantage a buyer gets is that the calf/calves chosen to enter are usually the best one(s) in a breeders herd.

How do you know he's the best one until he's tested?

 

[Badlands]

I'll repeat it:

There are currently no widely accepted industry standards for feed intake trials.


Badlands

 

[MikeC]

A bull test is nothing but a marketing scheme anymore anyway.

Then why do you bother to test ONE bull from your herd?

The big advantage a buyer gets is that the calf/calves chosen to enter are usually the best one(s) in a breeders herd.

How do you know he's the best one until he's tested?

Cause I'm a marketing schemer. ;-)

He was the calmest of the bunch. With those Calan gates the flightier bulls don't do good. In fact I've never seen a real nervous calf do good on test.

How can I find your previous post on the BIF website?
Is that 1970 info? Give me a link...................

 

[Frankie]

How can I find your previous post on the BIF website?
Is that 1970 info? Give me a link...................

Do a hear the word "please" here?

The info I posted was from the Sixth Edition 1990, but my link is gone. I do have a link to the Eighth Edition 2002.

 

[Badlands]

http://www.beefimprovement.org/library.html

Scroll down to the "Guidelines" towards the bottom of the page.

Badlands

 

[MikeC]

Thanks Badlands. I was really curious about what BIF had to say about bull tests. I know that tests have been knocked down from the 140 day tests of old because of many reasons.
Health being the main one. I guess some haven't been around bull tests long enough to know the difference. :roll:

The Auburn test originally started as a 140 day test in 1951. They moved to 112 days in 1990 and changed to 84 days in 2000.

As I explained earlier, our calves are on full feed for 112 days, which is plenty long enough to determine any genetic advantages.

Whether Frankie wants to believe it or not, having healthy bulls was the primary reason for these changes.

The Auburn test is a fully BIF sanctioned event. In fact, the test supervisor just received a "Continuing Research" award from them this year and the BIF President is on the test advisory committee.

"Widely recognized industry standards" :lol: What a joke.

 

[Badlands]

Right, MikeC.

I know Dr. Kriese-Anderson and Mr. Holliman.

Both great folks.

I know Dr. Kriese-Anderson's dad and brother here in NY, also. They have some nice Polled Herefords.

I have a picture on my desk with Mr. Holliman and myself in it.

I suspect that within a couple years, the BIF Guidelines will be changed to reflect the "new" experience, due in large part to the expertise of Dr. Kriese-Anderson and Mr. Holliman in this area.

Badlands
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