At what point do you just let them wander in MIG?

[SRBeef]

Our grass in WI has about quit for the year. I have been rotational grazing. As a newcomer to cattle I have really been struggling trying to determine what the real "carrying capacity" of my place is.

In the spring we had lots of rain up through mid July. Rain makes you think you are really on top of this thing.

Then in August and September it just did not rain. All of a sudden I had to scurry around trying to keep grass in front of the cows and calves which naturally are getting bigger and eating more.

Now I'm mostly grazing standing corn (photos in the beginners forum) but have a question on the grass.

I know you don't want to graze grass too short in the fall so it has the leaf area to store food in the roots to over winter and get going again in the spring.

If the grass has stopped growing, does that mean it has accumulated enough food in the roots for spring? If so can I just open up a number of paddocks and let the cattle eat as they want in between their visits to the corn field? They seem to want to spend part of the day in the corn, part under the edge of the trees chewing cud, and part still grazing something green.

At what point, if any, can you safely just open the gates and let cattle in to wander/graze the grass/clover mix down to the ground without hurting the grass stand next year?

Or do I put out some hay and keep them off of the remaining grass?

 

[dun]

I'm not saying that it's correct but we deal with the grass shortage by feeding hay and opening up a large area for the girls to wander in. Most of the pressure is still close to the hay but they will wander far and wide looking for anything that looks like it may be edible. Once the grass has gone dormant you can graze it close but you still want some protection to the plants to prevent heaving or the plant and it's roots from freezing and being killed by extreme cold.
Carrying capacity is one of those things that I have a different intepretation of then most people. I know that will come as a surprise that I look at things differently. Some people only consider the grass season and how many head they can run during that time frame. Ilook at it as an annual deal. If we feed hay I consider only the hay we've put up from this farm as part of the equation of carrying capacity. If I had to buy in outside hay every year I would classify that as being over capacity. I realize that buying in hay is a means of getting free fertility, but in this area getting a decent quality hay is almost impossible unless you buy alfalfa. Alfalfa is way more expensive then the cost for me to bale my own grass hay.

 

[novatech]

I don't know anything about pasture management in your area. You did mention that you had clover. You may give some consideration to letting it grow enough to seed out. If there is enough time before it gets covered with snow you may get another grazing off of it by letting it recover.
Down here when the pastures are bare because of drought it is best to have a sacrificial pasture as to not let the cattle totally destroy what is left of the grass. Totally different circumstances with different grasses, just thought it may still apply.
Some grass will recover well when grazed close some will not.

 

[dun]

Some grass will recover well when grazed close some will not.

That is the one really significant plus of fescue. About the only other thing I can think of that can take horrible abuse and not suffer from it is concrete.

 

[Jogeephus]

I think I look at it about like Dun. At the moment, they are having to work harder than they want for a meal but I still have green grass - its just tougher than they want. I'm not feeding cows hay yet but I'm letting them move between three pastures at the moment and when I open the fourth pasture up and they clean it well - I will then begin feeding hay and pull them back to a hay lot for a while and let the winter grasses take hold then begin the MIG again. I guess I'm using my gates now as safety valves.

 

[Douglas]

I have thought about starting to feed hay now and holding stockpiled forage for later.
My thinking is that with spring calving cows the nutritional needs now are much less than Jan and Feb. Why not hold the stockpiled fescue and oats i have and go ahead with the hay now? Of course i need to save some for icy weather.
But now the weather is better for putting out hay, warmer, dry land, more daylight when i get home from work.

 

[novatech]

I have thought about starting to feed hay now and holding stockpiled forage for later.
My thinking is that with spring calving cows the nutritional needs now are much less than Jan and Feb. Why not hold the stockpiled fescue and oats i have and go ahead with the hay now? Of course i need to save some for icy weather.
But now the weather is better for putting out hay, warmer, dry land, more daylight when i get home from work.

Stockpiled forage goes down in nutritional value as time goes on. Hay if stored properly will hold it's value for years.

 

[Limomike]

Stockpiled forage goes down in nutritional value as time goes on. Hay if stored properly will hold it's value for years.[/quote]

Well put Nova.... I rotate between three different pastures up until the cattle have eaten it down quite a bit. OF course, all of this depends on the weather too, as long as the weather holds up, I can sometimes feed forage well into December. Yes, the grasses are tougher, but they will still eat it. IF not, then I get out the hay bales. I keep the cattle off of one 20 acre pasture after about October 15th, and will let them in again early spring up until April 1st. then shut it off to let it grow for haying.

 

[Douglas]

The stockpiled forages declines but is still better generally than my fescue hay. Also my standing oats continue to grow well into dec. here in the south and should not decline much. If your trying to match nutritional need with available feed, i still think the hay should go first

 

[Douglas]

here is a discussion about poor quality hay i found.

http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/163 ... uality-hay



Feeding some of that low quality first cutting hay now in August through October offers another advantage to the cattle producer. It provides a window of opportunity to stockpile some pastures for winter grazing (see the article in this newsletter on stockpiling for more information). In most cases that stockpiled forage will be higher quality than mature first cutting grass hay. Feeding hay now can also provide any pasture paddocks that may have been overgrazed an adequate rest period to recover and recharge root reserves.

Matching forage quality to a cow's nutritional needs takes some management skills. In a year when there is plenty of low quality hay and high grain prices, feeding that hay at a non-traditional time of year can make dollars and cents.

 

[dun]

here is a discussion about poor quality hay i found.

http://www.thebeefsite.com/articles/163 ... uality-hay



Feeding some of that low quality first cutting hay now in August through October offers another advantage to the cattle producer. It provides a window of opportunity to stockpile some pastures for winter grazing (see the article in this newsletter on stockpiling for more information). In most cases that stockpiled forage will be higher quality than mature first cutting grass hay. Feeding hay now can also provide any pasture paddocks that may have been overgrazed an adequate rest period to recover and recharge root reserves.

Matching forage quality to a cow's nutritional needs takes some management skills. In a year when there is plenty of low quality hay and high grain prices, feeding that hay at a non-traditional time of year can make dollars and cents.

The folks at the U of MO at one time recommended feeding hay now, they were talking fescue, and grazing the stockpiled grass in the colder part of winter. The fescue hay will have a fairly high level of endophyte and the stockpiled stuff after a couple of good freezes and it's quit growing supposedly have a decreased level of endophyte

 

[SRBeef]

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of different ways of looking at things.

In my case this is Wisconsin. There is no such thing a winter grazing after a foot or two of snow most years. Last year we had snow cover beginning in early December. Most years its around Christmas.

As far as letting clover going to seed - we have had I think a 21 degrees F low the other night so while its still green it is not going to make much if any more growth until spring green up around April 1-10 or so. The picture in my avatar shows what the grass looked like March 30th of this year when a couple calves were born.

I did feed some hay earlier before opening up the corn. I think the standing corn will pretty much carry them through into January combined with some grazing now and a little hay later. In January I will then move them to the winter hay feeding/sacrifice area when the snow gets too deep to get the remaining corn and stalks most of which will hopefully be combined by then. This will also have the advantage of getting the cows to a less rich diet (hay only rather than corn) for their last trimester before calving about April 15th this coming year.

I was just wondering how close I can graze the remaining grass and clover in the pasture without damaging next year's stand.

Dun's comment probably covered it - if it is dormant (which it is very close to) I can graze it down. But I will still move them around so it doesn't get too short.

Thanks again for the comments. This is really a climate and location-specific question.

 

[Stocker Steve]

This is really a climate and location (and forage) (and management plan) specific question.

Grazing close in the fall will reduce next year' grass production. ND researchers estimate up to a 20% reduction.
Grazing close in the fall will improve next springs frost seeding success.
Grazing close in the fall will increase clover winter survival. I have had problems with snow mold under a lot of residue.

So I I try to leave 6 plus inches with my improved alfalfa stands to catch some show, I take most of the native pasture down to 3 or 4 inches to prep it for frost seeding, and I rest areas that were hit hard due to overwintering ect...

 

[SRBeef]

This is really a climate and location (and forage) (and management plan) specific question.

Grazing close in the fall will reduce next year' grass production. ND researchers estimate up to a 20% reduction.
Grazing close in the fall will improve next springs frost seeding success.
Grazing close in the fall will increase clover winter survival. I have had problems with snow mold under a lot of residue.

So I I try to leave 6 plus inches with my improved alfalfa stands to catch some show, I take most of the native pasture down to 3 or 4 inches to prep it for frost seeding, and I rest areas that were hit hard due to overwintering ect...

Thank you Steve, that's what I was looking for from a similar climate area.

 

[agmantoo]

Let me introduce myself. I am a feeder calf producer in the western part of NC, zone 7. I have been rotational grazing for more than 7 years. I got in trouble with the extended drought in 2007. Other than that I have not fed any hay for nearly 6 years. I actually only have 50 round bales stored for a true emergency. I am running ~100 head of heifers and cows on 160 acres of pasture. I do have ~50 acres in woods that I will give the cattle access to for shade. I do a lot of unconventional things such as I calve year round, my main forage is endophyte infected fescue, I have not fertilized in 3 years, I harvest and overseed my pastures with seed harvested off the place.

Now for my comment on when to let the cattle have run of the place. My answer is never! I always graze the tallest grass on the place first and I never graze the grass to the ground. It is essential to give all the varieties of forage in the pasture and equal opportunity to survive. Roaming at will cattle will destroy the most preferred forage in a pasture, then the second most preferred and on down the line until there is nothing left to regrow except weeds. I refer to this happening as the "snack machine syndrome". You know how it is when the snack machine is out of what you wanted and you make your second choice and if it is out you lower your choice to a third? Cattle will do the same thing. I do not have a weed problem following the no roaming rule as the desirable plants all get a chance to compete. My soil is the typical red clay material used for brick making. Excessive treading on this type soil when it is wet will reduce the yield unbelievable. I also limit all wheel traffic to dry periods and I have sold my hay equipment. If I knew how to post a picture here I would share a photo of my stockpiled fescue and my herd.
See if this will do anything
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i237/ ... G00168.jpg

 

[nap]

Let me introduce myself. I am a feeder calf producer in the western part of NC, zone 7. I have been rotational grazing for more than 7 years. I got in trouble with the extended drought in 2007. Other than that I have not fed any hay for nearly 6 years. I actually only have 50 round bales stored for a true emergency. I am running ~100 head of heifers and cows on 160 acres of pasture. I do have ~50 acres in woods that I will give the cattle access to for shade. I do a lot of unconventional things such as I calve year round, my main forage is endophyte infected fescue, I have not fertilized in 3 years, I harvest and overseed my pastures with seed harvested off the place.

Now for my comment on when to let the cattle have run of the place. My answer is never! I always graze the tallest grass on the place first and I never graze the grass to the ground. It is essential to give all the varieties of forage in the pasture and equal opportunity to survive. Roaming at will cattle will destroy the most preferred forage in a pasture, then the second most preferred and on down the line until there is nothing left to regrow except weeds. I refer to this happening as the "snack machine syndrome". You know how it is when the snack machine is out of what you wanted and you make your second choice and if it is out you lower your choice to a third? Cattle will do the same thing. I do not have a weed problem following the no roaming rule as the desirable plants all get a chance to compete. My soil is the typical red clay material used for brick making. Excessive treading on this type soil when it is wet will reduce the yield unbelievable. I also limit all wheel traffic to dry periods and I have sold my hay equipment. If I knew how to post a picture here I would share a photo of my stockpiled fescue and my herd.
See if this will do anything

Very interesting post. I am doing essentially the same thing in Southwest Arkansas. I started experimenting with MIG last year and am already seeing improvement in my pastures. I used very little hay last year to feed about 70 head. This year I hope to use even less. I have four fescue pastures of about 20 acres each that I rotate the cattle through during the winter. I also seeded some other warm weather grass pastures with white clover and ryegrass which I will include in the rotation in Jan. or Feb. As I've mentioned ad nauseum on this board, there is nothing about haying that I like, and we won't even talk about the expense. I think MIG is the way to go.

 

[1982vett]

Without rain, it all ends up looking like this.

Now last year I had pastures that looked like yours agmantoo, and baled 450 tons of hay which I'm feeding this year.

 

[wstevenl]

That's not exactly true, a pasture that is managed in a particular way has more or less ability to deal with drought and to deal with rain. The more carbon (dead grasses manure etc.) that is accumulated through grazing and management such as MIG or Mob Grazing, the more moisture can be stored in your pastures.