angus/saler cross

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Anonymous

As everyone by now knows I am biased towards Saler and Saler cross cattle so obviously I will suggest this one. The saler breed will complement that angus by maintaining low calving BW but will add a lot more growth and muscling. If you have access to some good Saler/Angus cross bulls for breeding you are really in good shape.

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Anonymous

I have had very little contact with the Saler breed other than at our bull test, and had a purebred breeder (that is now out of business). They were ALL NUTS. Now that is not breed bashing, just my observation. Try Angus with Simmental, or Gelbvieh. Great crosses. Jeanne
> Wondering if anyone could comment
> on angus saler cross. Thanks in
> advance.

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Anonymous

A good Angus bull can improve a lot of breeds. That's apparently a popular opinion; look at the black Limousin, Maines, Simmentals, and Salers around. I've not heard many comments about Salers, but there aren't many around my area.

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Anonymous

How long ago did you have contact with the breed? If it was more than 5 years ago you may be surprised at the changes. As with all imported breeds(of which Salers are one of the most recent first coming to the U.S. in the early 1970's), when the numbers are growing in the U.S. many cattle that should be culled are kept until the total population improves. Today these cattle are culled (as a rule). One item that should be kept in mind when discussing any breed is that in a population there are good and bad individuals. I can guarantee that in any breed you can find any number of cattle that are "nuts". My experience with purebred salers was very good. We had no calving problems even when crossing with charolais and the cows were very calm even after calving. I walked through the herd on foot every day and never once witnessed any hint of agressive behavior. In short make sure that limited personal observations are not sold as indicitive of a whole population to be fair to everyone especially those who may not have a lot of experience with cattle.

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Anonymous

why do you want to add continental breeding to angus. If you want cattle that take forever to feed out just look for some angus bloodlines that have that chia head , ears, (and attitude) I'm not an angus breeder but if you want heterosis in your herd look at baldies and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. It takes SEVERAL generations to stabilize a cross and cull the ones that don't fit your program.> As everyone by now knows I am
> biased towards Saler and Saler
> cross cattle so obviously I will
> suggest this one. The saler breed
> will complement that angus by
> maintaining low calving BW but
> will add a lot more growth and
> muscling. If you have access to
> some good Saler/Angus cross bulls
> for breeding you are really in
> good shape.

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OP
A

Anonymous

Good question let me start by laying out the strengths of each side of the cross:

Angus (British):

Strengths - early maturity, good marbling, low birthweight, polled, good maternal

Weaknesses - small carcass size, low yield grade

Saler (Continental):

Strengths - moderate marbling, low birthweights, good yield, good mothering ability, polled (in selected genetics)

Weaknesses - large finished frame size, longer finishing time

O.K. now that we have laid out the ground work (this is a generalized list that I expect to raise some discussion)now we can look at why anyone would want to add continental genetics to angus (british) genetics.

In todays market the packers are looking for a 700-900 lb carcass that can yield grade 2 or better with a outside of 3. YG 1 is paid a small premium while YG 4&5 carcasses are penalized heavily. For the most part a fullblood angus carcass will have no problem grading Choice but will have a hard time making a YG2. Also this animal will probably have a carcass weight in the 600-700 LB range. They will finish in about 12-13 months. So while this side brings good marbling to the party they are lacking in muscling. The Saler (continental) breed brings the necessary growth and carcass size to the party. A fullblood Saler will YG 1 or 2 with a low choice to high select quality grade. They will hang a 800-900 lb carcass and will finish in about 15 months. What a breeder that adds continental genetics is looking for is to bring the growth and muscling from the continental breed and the marbling from the british breed and add the hybred vigor from crossing the two seperate breeds to get a target animal that will meet packer specification while having hardy, fertile seedstock. While running baldies will gain some hybred vigor since baldies are angus (british)/ herford (british) crosses the level of hybred vigor is considerably less than a british/continental cross. Also, the herford will not add nearly as much growth and muscling as the continental genetics. Finally, while British breeds as a rule are earlier maturing, as seedstock breeders are producing larger versions maturities are getting closer to continental maturities. To sum it up, a 6.5 frame angus will have a similar maturity and finished weight to a 6.5 frame continental but the 6.5 frame continental will have less external fat and more muscle.

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Anonymous

But I would use Simmental cross Angus. Hmmm, wonder what I breed. Simmental is also an easy marbling breed along with low YG. Every bit of university research having to do with heterosis - recommends british crossed with continental for maximum heterosis. Jeanne <A HREF="http://www.SimmeValley.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.SimmeValley.com</A>

> Good question let me start by
> laying out the strengths of each
> side of the cross:

> Angus (British):

> Strengths - early maturity, good
> marbling, low birthweight, polled,
> good maternal

> Weaknesses - small carcass size,
> low yield grade

> Saler (Continental):

> Strengths - moderate marbling, low
> birthweights, good yield, good
> mothering ability, polled (in
> selected genetics)

> Weaknesses - large finished frame
> size, longer finishing time

> O.K. now that we have laid out the
> ground work (this is a generalized
> list that I expect to raise some
> discussion)now we can look at why
> anyone would want to add
> continental genetics to angus
> (british) genetics.

> In todays market the packers are
> looking for a 700-900 lb carcass
> that can yield grade 2 or better
> with a outside of 3. YG 1 is paid
> a small premium while YG 4&5
> carcasses are penalized heavily.
> For the most part a fullblood
> angus carcass will have no problem
> grading Choice but will have a
> hard time making a YG2. Also this
> animal will probably have a
> carcass weight in the 600-700 LB
> range. They will finish in about
> 12-13 months. So while this side
> brings good marbling to the party
> they are lacking in muscling. The
> Saler (continental) breed brings
> the necessary growth and carcass
> size to the party. A fullblood
> Saler will YG 1 or 2 with a low
> choice to high select quality
> grade. They will hang a 800-900 lb
> carcass and will finish in about
> 15 months. What a breeder that
> adds continental genetics is
> looking for is to bring the growth
> and muscling from the continental
> breed and the marbling from the
> british breed and add the hybred
> vigor from crossing the two
> seperate breeds to get a target
> animal that will meet packer
> specification while having hardy,
> fertile seedstock. While running
> baldies will gain some hybred
> vigor since baldies are angus
> (british)/ herford (british)
> crosses the level of hybred vigor
> is considerably less than a
> british/continental cross. Also,
> the herford will not add nearly as
> much growth and muscling as the
> continental genetics. Finally,
> while British breeds as a rule are
> earlier maturing, as seedstock
> breeders are producing larger
> versions maturities are getting
> closer to continental maturities.
> To sum it up, a 6.5 frame angus
> will have a similar maturity and
> finished weight to a 6.5 frame
> continental but the 6.5 frame
> continental will have less
> external fat and more muscle.

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OP
A

Anonymous

Actually, yes, my exposure to the breed has been less than 5 years. But in beef cattle, 5 years is not enough time to convert a breed population over on any trait. If you notice, most breeds that have had "temperament" problems have recognized it and has been scoring their cattle on dispostion, and relating it into an EPD evaluation to improve that trait. Please notice that the Simmental breed has never had to evaluate disposition. Now I am not saying there aren't some "nuts" running around - there deffinately ARE - in ALL BREEDS. I've even had some on my farm. My comments relate to many discussions with many different types of breeders. I've been in the purebred business for 30 years and have gotten around. Previously, been sales chairman of a bull test for about 15 years. Seen all breeds along with their temperament "away" from home. If we have something negative to say about a breed, are we supposed to keep quiet & let newcomers "swallow their lumps"? I didnot elaborate on my experience with the breed, but I have more than "limited personal observations". Jeanne <A HREF="http://www.SimmeValley.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.SimmeValley.com</A>
> How long ago did you have contact
> with the breed? If it was more
> than 5 years ago you may be
> surprised at the changes. As with
> all imported breeds(of which
> Salers are one of the most recent
> first coming to the U.S. in the
> early 1970's), when the numbers
> are growing in the U.S. many
> cattle that should be culled are
> kept until the total population
> improves. Today these cattle are
> culled (as a rule). One item that
> should be kept in mind when
> discussing any breed is that in a
> population there are good and bad
> individuals. I can guarantee that
> in any breed you can find any
> number of cattle that are
> "nuts". My experience
> with purebred salers was very
> good. We had no calving problems
> even when crossing with charolais
> and the cows were very calm even
> after calving. I walked through
> the herd on foot every day and
> never once witnessed any hint of
> agressive behavior. In short make
> sure that limited personal
> observations are not sold as
> indicitive of a whole population
> to be fair to everyone especially
> those who may not have a lot of
> experience with cattle.

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OP
A

Anonymous

Jeanne,

you sell your point very well and you have some good information to share. What it apprears is that you and I have different opinions about this breed which is perfectly acceptable. The purpose of this board is to freely share opinions and let the reader make their own decisions. My point was not that you should not share your observation but that an opinion should be related to its observation and contex. It sounds like you have seen a number of animals and personally owned one so your opinion is very valid. I myself have never witnessed any of this "nuts behavior" that you are describing so I have a hard time relating to it.(I obviously would never purchase or retain any animal of any breed that showed and behaviorable problems and I am always surprised anyone else does) I on the other hand have never owned a Simmetal animal as they did not fit into my management goals and the breed was fairly rare in Southern Minnesota. A large portion of cattle disposition is how they are handled. I observe about 5200 head of cattle on a daily basis passing through our packing plant (1.4 million/per year). Some of them have known genetic backgrounds and some do not. I have yet to be able to see a significant difference in disposition related to breed. What I do see is a huge difference based upon which source they are from and how they have been handled. You make a good point about the docility EPD. Something I would point out is that the Saler breed also does not have this EPD and yet it is one of the fastest growing breeds. If all of the cattle were nuts why would anyone be breeding them, especially more than once? Thanks for the response - this is a good healthy discussion.

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OP
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Anonymous

As any breed of anything starts to get popular you have the people that breed and sell in quantity and could care less about disposition. They just sell their problems to someone else. Culling isn't practiced and as long as it can be sold as "X breed" some poor guy is going to end up withit. And rather then butcher, they'll breed it to recoupe some of their money and away you go.

dunmovin farms

> Jeanne,

> you sell your point very well and
> you have some good information to
> share. What it apprears is that
> you and I have different opinions
> about this breed which is
> perfectly acceptable. The purpose
> of this board is to freely share
> opinions and let the reader make
> their own decisions. My point was
> not that you should not share your
> observation but that an opinion
> should be related to its
> observation and contex. It sounds
> like you have seen a number of
> animals and personally owned one
> so your opinion is very valid. I
> myself have never witnessed any of
> this "nuts behavior"
> that you are describing so I have
> a hard time relating to it.(I
> obviously would never purchase or
> retain any animal of any breed
> that showed and behaviorable
> problems and I am always surprised
> anyone else does) I on the other
> hand have never owned a Simmetal
> animal as they did not fit into my
> management goals and the breed was
> fairly rare in Southern Minnesota.
> A large portion of cattle
> disposition is how they are
> handled. I observe about 5200 head
> of cattle on a daily basis passing
> through our packing plant (1.4
> million/per year). Some of them
> have known genetic backgrounds and
> some do not. I have yet to be able
> to see a significant difference in
> disposition related to breed. What
> I do see is a huge difference
> based upon which source they are
> from and how they have been
> handled. You make a good point
> about the docility EPD. Something
> I would point out is that the
> Saler breed also does not have
> this EPD and yet it is one of the
> fastest growing breeds. If all of
> the cattle were nuts why would
> anyone be breeding them,
> especially more than once? Thanks
> for the response - this is a good
> healthy discussion.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

excellent point - as sad as it is to say not all cattle breeders are in it for the long run. There is a lot to be said for purchasing from someone who has been around the business and has built a reputation. Beyond that, if people use a little common sense about buying they can avaid a lot of the problems. If not "let the buyer beware".

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OP
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Anonymous

SCott, this needs a comfortable chair ,a fire and a bottle of something to sip on. I think we're approaching this from diffrernt ends of the question . a larger carcass makes slaughter more efficient and since so much of commodity meat production is processed product driven, what you say is perfectly logical. On the other hand I no longer order beef when I eat out. The last sirloin I had was rubbery, most steak houses have gone to a marinated product and the vast majority of people think a good piece of beef needs to bleed when served in order to chew it. I ate with a bunch of city people at a dude ranch and felt like I was dining with the cast of Eaters of The Dead. The local packer that did the steers in our breed's trial likes a half inch of cover on the carcass for his resturant trade. I think this is to insure that the mix of cattle he gets show some marbling .The ONLY real problem with english- continental crosses that I see are that crosses aren't a 50/50 deal. Life of an angus heifer X saler bull(s); first calf is a meat wagon with very little marbling and takes almost 200 days to feed, #2 calf marbles good finishes lite and still doesn't grade at slaughter , #3 calf looks like papa grows like a weed and makes premium. #4 calf is a duplicate of the first one with the marbling and whoever gets his steak is mighty pleased #5 calf is back to no marbling and is fed an extra 20 days. The problem I see is that many commercial herds are a scramble of genetics, Leachman stated that he tries to sell bulls to unscramble cow herds and make them look the same and manage the same and even he admited that they are just now starting to work on carcass traits Here's another nouget of info that may apply to the way I look at beef( the product) marbling isn't directly linked to tenderness and flavor. The guy at texas with the bovine genome mapping project thinks there may be a dozen or more actual genes related to taste and flavor. anyway my hands are hurting , I type like I drive a nail and with 2 fingers thats slow and painful. like to kick this around some more though> Good question let me start by
> laying out the strengths of each
> side of the cross:

> Angus (British):

> Strengths - early maturity, good
> marbling, low birthweight, polled,
> good maternal

> Weaknesses - small carcass size,
> low yield grade

> Saler (Continental):

> Strengths - moderate marbling, low
> birthweights, good yield, good
> mothering ability, polled (in
> selected genetics)

> Weaknesses - large finished frame
> size, longer finishing time

> O.K. now that we have laid out the
> ground work (this is a generalized
> list that I expect to raise some
> discussion)now we can look at why
> anyone would want to add
> continental genetics to angus
> (british) genetics.

> In todays market the packers are
> looking for a 700-900 lb carcass
> that can yield grade 2 or better
> with a outside of 3. YG 1 is paid
> a small premium while YG 4&5
> carcasses are penalized heavily.
> For the most part a fullblood
> angus carcass will have no problem
> grading Choice but will have a
> hard time making a YG2. Also this
> animal will probably have a
> carcass weight in the 600-700 LB
> range. They will finish in about
> 12-13 months. So while this side
> brings good marbling to the party
> they are lacking in muscling. The
> Saler (continental) breed brings
> the necessary growth and carcass
> size to the party. A fullblood
> Saler will YG 1 or 2 with a low
> choice to high select quality
> grade. They will hang a 800-900 lb
> carcass and will finish in about
> 15 months. What a breeder that
> adds continental genetics is
> looking for is to bring the growth
> and muscling from the continental
> breed and the marbling from the
> british breed and add the hybred
> vigor from crossing the two
> seperate breeds to get a target
> animal that will meet packer
> specification while having hardy,
> fertile seedstock. While running
> baldies will gain some hybred
> vigor since baldies are angus
> (british)/ herford (british)
> crosses the level of hybred vigor
> is considerably less than a
> british/continental cross. Also,
> the herford will not add nearly as
> much growth and muscling as the
> continental genetics. Finally,
> while British breeds as a rule are
> earlier maturing, as seedstock
> breeders are producing larger
> versions maturities are getting
> closer to continental maturities.
> To sum it up, a 6.5 frame angus
> will have a similar maturity and
> finished weight to a 6.5 frame
> continental but the 6.5 frame
> continental will have less
> external fat and more muscle.

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OP
A

Anonymous

Excellent information, I really enjoy thoughful discussions like this. A couple of the points you brought up bear some furthur discussion. Some of the differences in our viewpoints may be as a result of management styles for a beef herd. For our herd we have not retained any heifers for breeding. We do this because, after putting a pencil to paper, we have found that it is more economical to purchase replacements than to raise our own. As a result we are able to maintain a more consistant genetic base in our herd because we do not try to maintain static numbers of cows over the whole cattle cycle but rather have the maximize number of cows producing calves when calf prices are good and cull heavily when prices start to slide. Stockers are used to fill in for "empty" grazing positions. This style allows us to use AI and purchase bulls that "fit" with our fairly consistant genetic base. Trying to fit any one bull to a whole group of cows that have a varied genetic mix is very difficult and results in a rainbow of product. You are right, one of the biggest problems currently with producing crosbred calves is having access to a high quality supply of crossbred seedstock that will allow a breeder to maintain a consistant genetic mix. One approach that does work well if you cannot get good crossbred bulls is to to purchase quality 50/50 heifers and breed them terminally to either a saler bull or an angus bull depending on the desired market. This 75/25 calf maintains most of the desirable traits of both parents but it allows the breeder to utilize purebred parents with EPD's. In discussion of tenderness, unfortunately marbling is our best guide at this time. Probably very soon we will have other genetic tools but we have to work with what we have. It has been proven that marbling does in fact have a good correlation with tenderness. I do not have the exact figures readily available but as I recall the USDA did a study and concluded that a prime steak is 80% more likely to be tender than a select steak and a choice steak is 50% more like to be tender than a select steak. My percents may be off but that was the jist of the study. That is why prime is worth more than choice and so forth. As far as wanting a 1/2" outer covering, I suppose that this is one way to attempt to pick out higher quality animals but it in itself does not guarantee anything except lower grading animals and adds to the amount of time that the animals are on feed. External fat and marbling are loosely related but not directly. I will have to pick this discussion up later as I cannot seen to keep my thoughts flowing clearly. Some more fat to chew....

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OP
A

Anonymous

>I suspect that it is management differences, I'm in Ohio so we have tall grass (and short cows) A cowboy from Wa. told me that one. If you're buying heifers do you stay with a preferred cross or do the differences seem to even out with a terminal sire? One of the new things that I see coming is the electonic tracking of cattle thru slaughter. If you can get feedback on your cattle, that would make choices in breeding MUCH easier. P.S. excellent pun Excellent information, I really
> enjoy thoughful discussions like
> this. A couple of the points you
> brought up bear some furthur
> discussion. Some of the
> differences in our viewpoints may
> be as a result of management
> styles for a beef herd. For our
> herd we have not retained any
> heifers for breeding. We do this
> because, after putting a pencil to
> paper, we have found that it is
> more economical to purchase
> replacements than to raise our
> own. As a result we are able to
> maintain a more consistant genetic
> base in our herd because we do not
> try to maintain static numbers of
> cows over the whole cattle cycle
> but rather have the maximize
> number of cows producing calves
> when calf prices are good and cull
> heavily when prices start to
> slide. Stockers are used to fill
> in for "empty" grazing
> positions. This style allows us to
> use AI and purchase bulls that
> "fit" with our fairly
> consistant genetic base. Trying to
> fit any one bull to a whole group
> of cows that have a varied genetic
> mix is very difficult and results
> in a rainbow of product. You are
> right, one of the biggest problems
> currently with producing crosbred
> calves is having access to a high
> quality supply of crossbred
> seedstock that will allow a
> breeder to maintain a consistant
> genetic mix. One approach that
> does work well if you cannot get
> good crossbred bulls is to to
> purchase quality 50/50 heifers and
> breed them terminally to either a
> saler bull or an angus bull
> depending on the desired market.
> This 75/25 calf maintains most of
> the desirable traits of both
> parents but it allows the breeder
> to utilize purebred parents with
> EPD's. In discussion of
> tenderness, unfortunately marbling
> is our best guide at this time.
> Probably very soon we will have
> other genetic tools but we have to
> work with what we have. It has
> been proven that marbling does in
> fact have a good correlation with
> tenderness. I do not have the
> exact figures readily available
> but as I recall the USDA did a
> study and concluded that a prime
> steak is 80% more likely to be
> tender than a select steak and a
> choice steak is 50% more like to
> be tender than a select steak. My
> percents may be off but that was
> the jist of the study. That is why
> prime is worth more than choice
> and so forth. As far as wanting a
> 1/2" outer covering, I
> suppose that this is one way to
> attempt to pick out higher quality
> animals but it in itself does not
> guarantee anything except lower
> grading animals and adds to the
> amount of time that the animals
> are on feed. External fat and
> marbling are loosely related but
> not directly. I will have to pick
> this discussion up later as I
> cannot seen to keep my thoughts
> flowing clearly. Some more fat to
> chew....

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OP
A

Anonymous

Getting feedback on the cattle makes all the difference. I try to stay with the preferred cross from a known supplier when purchasing heifers. One item to keep in mind though ..... a cow may produce 6-8 calves in her life. A bull, especially an AI bull may sire hundreds if not thousands of calves. The accuracy of a bulls EPD are therefore going to be much more accurate than any cow. I put a lot more emphasis on getting the best bull I can afford than on the cows.

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OP
A

Anonymous

> Yep your right on the impact of the bull over numbers . Catch you on another "thread".Getting feedback on the cattle
> makes all the difference. I try to
> stay with the preferred cross from
> a known supplier when purchasing
> heifers. One item to keep in mind
> though ..... a cow may produce 6-8
> calves in her life. A bull,
> especially an AI bull may sire
> hundreds if not thousands of
> calves. The accuracy of a bulls
> EPD are therefore going to be much
> more accurate than any cow. I put
> a lot more emphasis on getting the
> best bull I can afford than on the
> cows.

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