Advice for Newbies(to cattle raising)

[KMacGinley]

1. Build a corral with a good Headgate or chute before you put one head of cattle on your place.

2. Take someone knowledgable with no economic incentive with you to buy cows and or bulls.
There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

3. Have good cattle tight boundary fences before having one head of cattle on the place.


Feel free to add to this list.

 

[Joy in Texas]

Read ,Read ,Read......... Fine books about everything you wanted to ever know about cattle. Or look for good web sites. And ask plenty of questions.

 

[Bez+]

First - welcome to the biz Mr. / Mrs. / Miss Newbie.

You got livestock you will have dead stock.

Do you have a veterinarian lined up? Hope so because you are going to need one – sooner or later it happens. And it never happens between 0800 and 1600 hours – so have your ducks lined up before you ned to hunt down the professional help.

Consult with him / her about vaccinations for your area - before you bring the animals home.

What do you know about cattle?

Can you doctor? Can you calve out a heifer? Can you go shoulder deep in the back end and sort out the mess? Nope – not likely.

So take a couple of animal husbandry courses.

Can you give a needle? Can you restrain the animal to do so? Probably not. So find out how to do it. The last thing we need is someone asking for help – and it happens every week – when they really should be calling in the professionals.

Most folks will spend thousands on their pet Pookie – and not a penny on old Bessie.

Bessie makes money if looked after – that Pookie simply costs – get your priorities sorted out and be prepared to act when it becomes necessary.

These are animals - not pets. They are tough, ornery, eating machines that one day will run you over and the next day look at you with a calmness that you cannot believe. They are one heck of a great hobby - that is how wife and I got started in the business years ago. Love 'em, but if you spoil 'em you will end up with problems.

They eat grass and hay. They drink water and they need some mineral. That is all. If they do not thrive on this - sell the lot and start over. Any animal that needs grain and creep and such will cost you money - that cost takes away from any profit. Do not plan on profit for a few years. There will always be something you need to buy that you do not have.

Do not believe every Tom, Dick and Harry that says you need "sack feed". In fact if you do - unless you are in dire straits because of pasture or hay or drought problems - you have the wrong cattle on the property. Feeding from a sack is a losers game.

You wanna' buy cows.

Great. If you have the infrastructure for them - let's get on with it. If you do not, then stop and build - then buy.

First things first. You need a STRONG pen - made of something other than wire fencing to hold the new arrivals. I know some folks do not like to go this way, but I recommend at least 6 feet high, solid wood with a heavy rail on top to prevent them from crushing it when - not if - someone tries to escape over the top. Any cow can try to go over - if you stop them they do not continue - if you do not stop them they become your worst nightmare.

My second choice is steel - more expensive, but in my mind a better choice.

No matter - always build at least one pen that is guaranteed to have NO escapees!

5 Feet tall does not cut it - 6 is best - mine is even taller.

Lock them up for at least a week and decide on which ones are not going to give you probs. You might seriously consider selling those who do not settle in. It only takes one beach to ruin a herd - toss the high headed one(s) before you let them out on pasture. Even if you take a loss in bucks - it will save you a terrific amount of grief.

You do NOT need a barn. These animals can live outside all year round - all they need is shelter from wind and a place to stay out of ankle deep mud - feed them well and your herd will thrive.

Calves do better on grass than in a pen - less chance of sickness.

Buy a decent working truck and get yourself a stock trailer - even a small one. You will need it - have it before you bring the cows home. You have no idea how often newbies come to this pace and ask to borrow my outfit. Some of them have never been here - but they are not afraid to ask.

For this reason you should also have some type of very secure handling system available - BEFORE you bring the animals home.

I also like to use a complete squeeze chute. Not truly necessary, but you will be a happy camper when you have one on site. Ours is a Hi-Hog – very expensive. There are a multitude of others that will do the job – we bought this one because we know we will run a big number of cattle through it every year. If you are a hobby guy / gal – you do not need this – but you MUST have something to restrain a cow / bull. They look small until you are along side and have to cut a calf out – then they are big.

When you let them out - they go into a small – well fenced field.

All water and feed stays in the catch pen they just spent the week or so in. That way they will always come home. The first field they go into should always be accessed through your main catch pen. Keeps it easy to round them up until your home truly becomes their home.

You might want to give a loud and continuous "Hey Girls" or something like that when you feed them. This will condition them to come to the call. Even if they are locked in the pen.

You might look like a goof while you are training them, but for sure you will be the big dog on the walk when - not if - they get out. You will walk out there with a pail and they will come on the run.

Now you want to buy cattle. That is fine.

So let's talk about the animal purchase itself.

If you are ready to go for a drive and do some buying - leave your cheque book at home – you can come back and give out the money – but NEVR buy without looking at less than three herds. Know in advance exactly what you are willing to spend. Stay within the budget - no sense breaking the bank on something that can die in transit.

When you look at the animals - walk in the herd. On foot or on horse - makes no mind to me. But on foot if that is the way you will handle them when you get them home.

If they run you - take your truck and your money and leave. I do not care how nice they are - you are not in the cattle "calming" business.

If they take off at high speed when you approach - take your truck and your money and leave. I do not care how nice they are - you are not in the cattle "retrieving" business.

How I buy cattle for the place - which I seldom do now.

You mark them - paint gun works. You record the tag numbers. You cut them out and run them through the chutes and squeeze at the sellers place. Any attitude observed here puts them - IMMEDIATELY - back in the sellers herd. As a newbie, if you buy gate run – you are an idiot. Cherry pick – even if you pay premium for your first animals.

Look at the records the seller has on his suggested animals. If he has no records - I leave. I want to know what I am buying and where they come from and how they are bred and .... well, you get the idea. Never buy unknowns if you are not an old hand in the business - lots of folks will be more than happy to sell you their troubles, take your money and lock the gate when you leave.

I have a veterinarian come to the sellers place. I have each animal inspected. Completely. If vaccinations are not up to date we do them on the spot. Sometimes I pay and sometimes I split this cost - depends on my mood and the relationship I have with the seller.

I split the veterinarians' mileage bill with the seller. I pay the veterinarian cost for the animals I buy. The seller pays for the animals that are inspected but I kick out of the line up.

Same goes for any calves that might be coming along.

I pay for the trucking to my place.

I get the following from the seller.

1. Copy of complete veterinarian bill.

2. Copy of veterinarian report. I want this in a big way.

3. Copy of all breeding and health care notes.

4. Copy of final receipt.

5. Any guarantees I can get from the seller - safe in calf - will continue to breed - vaccinations up to date as per our agreement and so on. Return of animals if required. You get the drift.

The breed? Well, I like British – you do what you want – but stay away from the funny stuff unless you have a market. Long haired Highlands do not sell well in the sale barn – are you willing to accept a 30 plus % cut just because you find them UNIQUE? Biggest thing I notice about small holders is they tend to get caught up in the minutia and allow the devil to tie up the details. Be smart when you start – forget the funny stuff until you have your markets developed. That way you can always sell your animals.

Just be sure to buy what fits YOUR program. And if at all possible buy cow, calf at side and already safe in calf.

Instant herd, instant replacements, instant cash flow and first year breeding - all taken care of while you settle in with your new responsibilities and learn what it takes to raise cattle.

If you are a newbie - do not - please do not - buy an entire herd of bred heifers - you are not ready - trust me on this.

Find a reputable breeder or three or more and visit them all. If they know you are a serious buyer they will treat you well, answer your questions, assist you in future projects and do their darndest to BUILD A RELATIONSHIP.

They really do want your return business. And you want to give it to them if you find the right place. Trust me on this - relationships in the cattle industry will make you or break you.

Besides - if you have a few good years the seller may indeed become YOUR buyer!

If you have all of the above looked after, you are well on your way and either animal will fit YOUR situation.

Buy quality NOT quantity - if you are newbie take an old hand along with you.

Rule of thumb - cow will calve out. Mother Nature and God have a way of making this happen. So forget bothering us with – "When will she calve?" In all honesty, how the heck do you think we would know? For that matter most of us do not really care – we know the calf will come when the time is right – nothing more and nothing less.

Go with mature to prevent calving probs and mothers who disown or kill their calves with starvation - not common, but it does happen. Go private - not sale barn - do not buy someone elses trouble – unless it is a TOTAL herd dispersal – and these can be real good sales to go to.

Tell the owner you WILL be back if there are problems that may have been hidden. Get all their records - herd health, vaccinations, dates of birth, and so on. If those records are not available - run for your truck.

Far as I am concerned - solid animal is good - but cheaper is better. Five year old - proven cows are a great start.

Calves all sell - you just want good 'uns. Healthy and lively.

How many to buy?

I see it here all the time:

I bought a 12 acre "ranch" and want to run 25 head of cattle – how long will the pasture last – or will I have to buy feed?

Well, I figure that pasture might make it about a month and you are in trouble. Know how many animal units you can support before you buy. When you ask about this on the boards – remember – this is an international board.

If someone from Australia, Canada or Germany responds – how accurate do you think their answer is? Especially if you live in the out skirts of Dallas?

So do your own homework – talk to your neighbours and talk to your local ag rep. They KNOW!

Be ready for the dry spell that will drain your pocket book. If you can buy hay on the cheap – even if you do not need it – then buy it. Cows will gladly eat three year old hay. AND – they will eat straw - if it is more than two years old they like it better than most types of hay.

Do you need a bull for that 8 head herd? If you have the budget to support a freeloader for 11 months – go for it. But I would suggest you plan to AI initially.

Find out who does it - ask your veterinarian - they are usually in the knowledge loop and will tell you.

If you buy a registered bull – remember – papers are only good for lining the bottom of the bird cage. Do your homework and visit a bunch of places before you spend your money. The number of substandard herd sires pictured on these boards is almost overwhelming.

AI is a good way to go as long as you are willing to accept the limitations that come with it.

AI provides access to excellent genetics and allows you to experiment with many different sires at an affordable price - but there is NO guarantee that the AI process will give you a calf.

That is why many small operators also keep a bull on hand - and ALL big operators keep at least one and usually many bulls on hand - the bull picks up the ones that are missed during the AI process.

A good bull is worth his weight in calves - EVERY year.

AI is usually around 60 - 70% - give or take a couple of percent.

Feed costs - anyone who gives you a dollar answer and does not tell you it is quite possibly wrong - well, they are potentially leading you down the garden path. Ask anyone in Texas or Alabama how much it costs to feed an animal this year as compared to last year.

I have seen hay as cheap as 8 bucks a bale and as much as $107.50 per bale. I am talking the same sized bale. The fact is, you cannot tell for sure - Mom Nature and God have a way of ruining your plans when you least expect it or desire it.

No matter what you budget for feed - you need to be able to double it or triple it depending on how the weather Gods treat you.

Everyone wants to know about the profit - basically there is none for the small producer - national average is around a hundred bucks per cow. Some a bit more and some a bit less. Registered seed stock producers may be higher, but so are their expenses.

In all honesty you will lose money for several years - so suck it up. That is why we all drive beaters and wear old clothes.

If you have a mortgage you will have a second job - while a generalized statement, it is usually a true statement.

When you find the real profit let us all in on the secret - please!

This is a fun game, but it can be a financial killer - never forget that. If it was a real money maker, EVERYONE would be in the game.

Regards

Bez+

 

[auctionboy]

It is obvious why bez+ location says still trying to get back to even.

 

[novatech]

All the above is important. But the most important is Grass. Without it everything else is in vain. Grass should be your first concern. Infrastructure second and cattle last.

 

[Paul54]

I agree with all said. First become a grass farmer, then a cattleman.

 

[Caustic Burno]

All the above is important. But the most important is Grass. Without it everything else is in vain. Grass should be your first concern. Infrastructure second and cattle last.

I have heard rumor of this type operation.

 

[C HOLLAND]

There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

Are you serious, there are actually people out there that would take advantage of a NEWBIE,,,,,I am SHOCKED but don't they need someone to sell their culls to.

 

[KMacGinley]

C Holland: They do need someone to sell their culls to and by the looks of some of the pics on these boards they have plenty of takers.

 

[C HOLLAND]

C Holland: They do need someone to sell their culls to and by the looks of some of the pics on these boards they have plenty of takers.

I sure thought the local sale barn filled that void.

I guess when you have breeders that don't care what they keep as breeders there will always be poor quality available for the new guy to buy.

I don't think that this is the norm for PB Breeders, but it seems to be getting more of a problem.

I have made my mistakes by what I have purchased in the past, but I continue to learn each day and I have learned to find someone willing to help you with your decisions verses critisizing every thing you do.

I will know in the next few years if I am on the right track to what I want in cattle, I am using proven AI sires and trying to get the best cows I can (not the most expensive). I am amazed how the big name breeders will play the old shell game with their high dollar bulls to jack up the price for the rest of their sales.

 

[TheBullLady]

Have a plan... know what you're getting into the "business" for. Are you going to sell for beef? Niche marketing? What are your long and short term goals? You'd be surprised how much these can change as time goes by and your thoughts change.

 

[travlnusa]

Find a mentor that is close to you.

I can not tell you how many times having his advice avaliable to me has save my skin.

Read every post on this board. I have posted a few questions, but most anything you can think of has been asked and answered here.

There are times I will see a post, and will think "that would never apply to me." I still read them. Over time the post that will never apply to you will take on a whole new meaning. You may not recall the details of the post, but you can find it with the search feature.

 

[MikeC]

There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

Are you serious, there are actually people out there that would take advantage of a NEWBIE,,,,,I am SHOCKED but don't they need someone to sell their culls to.

A newbie is a potential new customer to breeders. Seeing that so many of the older guys are getting out of the cattle business, the newbies are a big part of their future lifeline.

The best way to get your money's worth out of a breeder is to tell him, or show him is even better, what kind of cows you have and what you would like your cows or bulls to do in reference to the future.

Tell him your budget and have him send you a bull, sight unseen. Or you could ask several breeders to do the same and travel to each place before making your final decision.

He will most always go overboard to send you a better animal than you could pick yourself. Be sure and ask him why he made the choice and explain.

After all, there is no one who knows his cows and calves better than the one who raised him and he needs the future business.

What discourages breeders is when he knows which bull(s) are best for someone, the buyer comes in and picks a bull that might work for some, but not for him, then talks the breeder down for raising bad animals.

All commercial cattlemen don't need milk (which is highly correlated to YW), calving ease (older,bigger cows can have a somewhat stouter calf), and numerous other traits which might be antagonistic to other traits.

I disagree with the statement:

There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

An uninformed buyer will usually buy something as cheap as he possibly can, and it may not meet his own particular needs as a breeding animal. The buyer will then blame the breeder and talk him down because the buyer was, after all, "UNINFORMED" and made a bad decision.

There is no such thing as a perfect bull and most of the "Uninformed" think they all should be.

 

[mnmtranching]

Timely rains will make or break you.

 

[aplusmnt]

There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

Are you serious, there are actually people out there that would take advantage of a NEWBIE,,,,,I am SHOCKED but don't they need someone to sell their culls to.

A newbie is a potential new customer to breeders. Seeing that so many of the older guys are getting out of the cattle business, the newbies are a big part of their future lifeline.

The best way to get your money's worth out of a breeder is to tell him, or show him is even better, what kind of cows you have and what you would like your cows or bulls to do in reference to the future.

Tell him your budget and have him send you a bull, sight unseen. Or you could ask several breeders to do the same and travel to each place before making your final decision.

He will most always go overboard to send you a better animal than you could pick yourself. Be sure and ask him why he made the choice and explain.

After all, there is no one who knows his cows and calves better than the one who raised him and he needs the future business.

What discourages breeders is when he knows which bull(s) are best for someone, the buyer comes in and picks a bull that might work for some, but not for him, then talks the breeder down for raising bad animals.

All commercial cattlemen don't need milk (which is highly correlated to YW), calving ease (older,bigger cows can have a somewhat stouter calf), and numerous other traits which might be antagonistic to other traits.

I disagree with the statement:

There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

An uninformed buyer will usually buy something as cheap as he possibly can, and it may not meet his own particular needs as a breeding animal. The buyer will then blame the breeder and talk him down because the buyer was, after all, "UNINFORMED" and made a bad decision.

There is no such thing as a perfect bull and most of the "Uninformed" think they all should be.

Good comment!

As for crooks in cattle business I am sure there are some since they are in all walks of life. But my experience has always been just the opposite. I have basically found everyone I have dealt with in regards cattle, rather it be feed, hay, or cattle breeders to be more than helpful and more than honest. I think most in cattle business are upstanding honest people, just seems that type of people are more what the Cattle industry offers not the rare crooks.

 

[C HOLLAND]

A newbie is a potential new customer to breeders. Seeing that so many of the older guys are getting out of the cattle business, the newbies are a big part of their future lifeline.

Good answer (much better than a few responses to this issue)

The best way to get your money's worth out of a breeder is to tell him, or show him is even better, what kind of cows you have and what you would like your cows or bulls to do in reference to the future.

Tell him your budget and have him send you a bull, sight unseen. Or you could ask several breeders to do the same and travel to each place before making your final decision.

I would prefer the go to his place, and let the breeder make some suggestions and even question my choice if he thinks I am choosing the wrong animal for my situation.

He will most always go overboard to send you a better animal than you could pick yourself. Be sure and ask him why he made the choice and explain.

After all, there is no one who knows his cows and calves better than the one who raised him and he needs the future business.

What discourages breeders is when he knows which bull(s) are best for someone, the buyer comes in and picks a bull that might work for some, but not for him, then talks the breeder down for raising bad animals.

I know that we all have times we second guess what someone suggest and this is part of the school of HARD KNOCKS and shame on me if I repeat the same mistake.

All commercial cattlemen don't need milk (which is highly correlated to YW), calving ease (older,bigger cows can have a somewhat stouter calf), and numerous other traits which might be antagonistic to other traits.

I disagree with the statement:

There are a high number of crooks in the cattle business that love to see uninformed buyers drive up the driveway.

I also think that the above statement is not true for most breeders.

An uninformed buyer will usually buy something as cheap as he possibly can, and it may not meet his own particular needs as a breeding animal. The buyer will then blame the breeder and talk him down because the buyer was, after all, "UNINFORMED" and made a bad decision.
The bull I purchased 2 years ago is not the perfect bull for my current situation, at the time I wanted a low BW bull with above average growth and that is what I purchased.(and he was not the cheapest,,,in the top 15 actually) (by the EPD's) I know now he is not the best I could have purchased, especially since I went to buy a Char and wound up getting an Angus bull due to the fact the Chars were all pulled from the sale.

I don't blame anyone but me and I talked to all the breeders there that would give you a minute of their time.

There is no such thing as a perfect bull and most of the "Uninformed" think they all should be.

Mike, you can add stubborn to the above and you don't have to be new to fall in that category. I fit both at times, but I will be the first to admit it. :lol:

 

[AngusLimoX]

Good post Mike.

PB breeders to me as a newbie have almost been like clergy.
2 of them have talked me out of buying what they had and pointed me where I could get what I really did need! I guess that is why I got a little testy recently on another thread, these PB people make it or break it on credibility and respect.

Now - let me say this - Caveat Emptor - if you do not do your homework, if you do not have your goals laid out and you start buying on the cheap without getting help - just like in Monty Python "I phart in your general direction"! :lol: If you don't care, I don't care.

Newbies, if you are thinking of getting cattle, and someday down the road either having a pedigreed commercial herd or a purebred herd, touch base with your local pb breeders, even if you are not ready to buy pb. If you are not impressed, come on back and let us know.

The mistakes you make in cattle can effect your operation for YEARS. The very best in here check everything out before they commit to a decision with long term consequences.

Newbies - save this thread - that post from Bez will save you lots of heartache, but I promise you - you will still make some of those mistakes. ( Short cattle chase this morning, dead tree near the fenceline. My Fault, not the cows, but I swear that #32 is a gonner! :lol: ).

While people are generally honest and forthright, they expect you to know what you are doing when you buy something - cattle, feed, seed etc...

Enjoy the cattle and keep safety #1

ALX

 

[rockridgecattle]

I know this was mentioned but deserves mentioning again, develope a good relationship with your vet. they are the ones helping at 2 am. A good relationship can help save our butts.
And be kind when you get their bill.

Always know what costs what. What animal is costing to be kept. what the inputs are on machinery...find ways to cut costs outside the box. Not in herd health management but in management of the farm or ranch.
try and refrain from metal-itis....the need to own everything you need to operate a farm.
For example might be cheaper to rent equipment rather than own and maintain.
Might be cheaper to get a contractor in to do a job ie. haul out and spread manure rather than do it your self.

And last Rome was not built in a day and neither is a farm. You'll take two steps forward and at times 6 back. Don't get discouraged.

good luck

 

[KMacGinley]

Let me clarify my statement about the high number of crooks in the purebred cattle business.

Do I think that the majority of Purebred breeders are crooks?

No.

Less than 10%?

Yes

If 5% of purebred breeders have a different set of ethics from what can be considered moral and ethical, this would be hundreds anyway, which I consider to be a high number.

Let me give an example.

A lady from Chicago moved into our neighborhood and bought a livestock farm. She was flush with cash from a personal injury settlement and loved animals. She decided that she needed some cows for her farm. She had already bought goats and ducks and chickens.

She saw a cows for sale ad in the local paper and went out to the farm and came home with two cows and a bull. The cows were July calvers from a farm that calves everything in January and February. The bull would be right at home with many of the bulls pictured on this forum. She called us to come and see her new cows. She told us that she had got the cows for $1800 apiece and the bull for $3600. She did this on her own, with no advice from anyone with knowledge. I guess she took Mike C's advice and let the breeder help her with her selections.

So what did she have? 2 hard breeders that would have been culls if she wouldn't have come along and a bull that I wouldn't have taken for free. Well I might have taken him for free, but he would've been to the sale barn the following Wedensday. $3600 for breeding two cows, if they bred back. Not a recipe for profit. Except for the guy that hooked her and reeled her in.

I am sticking to my guns, ask around about the operation you are thinking of buying from and take an expert, with No economic incentive with you to make your selections. Don't buy the first cattle you see, shop around and take your time.

 

[aplusmnt]

Let me clarify my statement about the high number of crooks in the purebred cattle business.

Do I think that the majority of Purebred breeders are crooks?

No.

Less than 10%?

Yes

If 5% of purebred breeders have a different set of ethics from what can be considered moral and ethical, this would be hundreds anyway, which I consider to be a high number.

Let me give an example.

A lady from Chicago moved into our neighborhood and bought a livestock farm. She was flush with cash from a personal injury settlement and loved animals. She decided that she needed some cows for her farm. She had already bought goats and ducks and chickens.

She saw a cows for sale ad in the local paper and went out to the farm and came home with two cows and a bull. The cows were July calvers from a farm that calves everything in January and February. The bull would be right at home with many of the bulls pictured on this forum. She called us to come and see her new cows. She told us that she had got the cows for $1800 apiece and the bull for $3600. She did this on her own, with no advice from anyone with knowledge. I guess she took Mike C's advice and let the breeder help her with her selections.

So what did she have? 2 hard breeders that would have been culls if she wouldn't have come along and a bull that I wouldn't have taken for free. Well I might have taken him for free, but he would've been to the sale barn the following Wedensday. $3600 for breeding two cows, if they bred back. Not a recipe for profit. Except for the guy that hooked her and reeled her in.

I am sticking to my guns, ask around about the operation you are thinking of buying from and take an expert, with No economic incentive with you to make your selections. Don't buy the first cattle you see, shop around and take your time.

The farm she got the cows and bull from sound more like some individual trying to dump some culls out of paper than a reputable Breeder. They guy probably sold used cars for a living and cows were his hobby.