5 yrs for burning 139 acres of BLM

[Commercialfarmer]

Grow up and quit acting like a bunch of liberals and children. Liberals can't handle the truth, and children think because Joe blow didn't get in trouble why should I.

That wasn't my point. My point is that previously many said that justice was served because the law had to be followed. It's not about following the rule of law. If it was, the wall street protesters would have been arrested. The real terrorists would be called terrorists.

My point is that by showing the stark differences in how these situations have been handled, many (not all) in the federal government are about using it as a weapon.

Do you think when the head of the IRS authorized targeting of Tea Party groups and Tea Party groups only, that the IRS was not being used as a weapon?


Before the guns started firing and before they attempted to run the road block. Why were they being stopped?

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Here is the answer: read the bold print very carefully

On Wednesday afternoon, U.S. Magistrate Judge Stacie F. Beckerman unsealed the government's criminal complaint against two brothers, Ammon and Ryan Bundy, and Jon Ritzheimer, as well as five others arrested in connection with the occupation. All stand accused of conspiring to use threats, intimidation or force to stop federal officers from doing their duty,

A significant amount of the FBI's information used to charge Ammon Bundy came from an activist named Pete Santilli, who was living inside the refuge and broadcasting live his conversations with fellow activists.

To demonstrate a conspiracy, the government has a lower burden than it would with similar charges, such as aiding and abetting, or solicitation. A conspiracy charge in federal court does not require the underlying offense to have taken place, so prosecutors can charge the defendants based on their statements, without proving they actually committed a crime.

That is where Santilli's broadcasts proved so useful to the FBI.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff- ... story.html



I grew up with 2 people that went through the academy at Quantico, which is pretty amazing being such a small town. Know a third that I went to college with. I don't want to see anyone injured or die. All of these people are good people. One quit. The other I grew up with I talk to quite a bit still. He doesn't say much, but he doesn't like where things are or are headed. Said he doesn't know if he can do it another 10 years. What I know from them, is that there is a real sense of immunity felt by federal agents. Right or wrong.

If this awesomely powerful machine is misguided, there is real damage that can and will occur. Re-read the bold print. Then think about that being enforced by people that feel immune to the same repercussions of local law enforcement.

 

[Commercialfarmer]

Last post and I'll shut up. I apologize for the amount of bandwidth I've used. The more I dig into this deal, the more I have problems with the situation.


These are the people that appealed the sentencing.

In June 2014 Refuge Manager Chad Karges, BLM Field Manager Rhonda Karges, his wife, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Frank Papagni, who had prosecuted the Hammond case, filed an appeal of the sentencing with the Ninth District Federal Court, demanding that the full sentence of five years mandated by the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act be imposed. With Dwight and Steven out of the way, the ranch would be sure to fall into the government's hands: failure to pay the $400,000 fine by the end of 2015 would result in confiscation of their ranch. To my knowledge, they've only paid half that. Furthermore, the Hammonds were forced to give the BLM the right of first refusal if they ever did sell their ranch in order to pay the fine. In either case, the land-grabbing BLM will have achieved their decades-long goal: seizure of the Hammond ranch.

There is no resentencing in a case of this kind without the approval of the Justice Department: clearly the intent here was to make an example of the Hammonds, to send a message that any resistance to the federal government's aggressive tactics in their long war against Western ranchers will be mercilessly crushed. The Ninth District judge, one Ann Aiken, got the message and ruled that the Hammonds be returned to jail for the full five year term, minus time already served.

Another factor in the unusual sentencing appeal was the stance of Amanda Marshall, former U.S. attorney for Oregon, who while still in office denounced the original sentence as "unlawful." It was she who formally authorized the appeal. Marshall has an interesting history: she had never served as a federal prosecutor prior to her appointment by the Obama administration. Her previous employment was as a "children's advocate" in the Oregon Department of Justice. Prior to that she was a deputy district attorney in Oregon's Coos County. She resigned her U.S. attorney position last April, claiming to be suffering from "post-traumatic stress disorder." The "trauma" here was no doubt the scandal surrounding her stalking of Assistant U.S. Attorney Scott M. Kerin, who says she had been bombarding him with unwanted text messages, phone calls, and other communications for over a year. Kerin filed a hostile workplace environment complaint against her, claiming she followed him after work hours, and drove by his house, in addition to sending numerous emails. The Justice Department launched an investigation, withdrawing Marshall's security clearance and essentially making it impossible for her to continue as U.S. attorney.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... lly-about/

 

[Bigfoot]

Commercial Farmers post has really made me think. I know he's not condoning what LaVoy did (nor am I) the night he was killed. The series of events leading up to it do arouse questions for me.

 

[fenceman]

Commercial farmer. I very much appreciate your post.
I have studied the same information and have the same beliefs.
I admittedly lack the education , tech savy and intellect to do the job you do of presenting the facts. You are exactly what we need.

 

[Bigfoot]

As long as we continue to accept crap sandwich in our lunch box. That's exactly what they will continue to feed us.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Before the guns started firing and before they ran attempted to run the road block. Why were they being stopped?[/quote]

Because they took over a government building and armed trespassing for starters. And the next reason is, for the most part all the leaders were captured with only LaVoy getting killed. The traffic stop was a very good tactical decision on the law enforcement side. Because the way I see it is, alot of lives were saved during that traffic stop.
If someone was occupying my house and walking around in the wide open they'd be in trouble. But then again I can't see why someone burning vehicles and looting stores aren't shot on site either.
I do admire these folks fighting for what they believe in. And if the government burns your stuff down on property you own, we as taxpayers need to replace your belongings with compensation.
And no one should be singled out and made an example of, like the Hammonds were.

 

[fenceman]

The occupiers point, and it is quite arguable. Is that they were in a public building on public owned lands. That's certainly a stretch. But the point they were pointing to is that these so called public lands are not public at all.

 

[TexasBred]

The occupiers point, and it is quite arguable. Is that they were in a public building on public owned lands. That's certainly a stretch. But the point they were pointing to is that these so called public lands are not public at all.

I think the local courthouse is a public building too but I don't think you can legally occupy it24-7 for weeks at a time.

 

[hurleyjd]

Here is another side of the coin as to why the government manages the land.

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2 ... -their-way

 

[JMJ Farms]

Jmj your right to some extent. We should work with law enforcement as long as they are working within the boundaries of the law and of the constitution. But you should be very thankful that your founding fathers didn't stick their azzs in the air when the British came marching down the street.

Very different situations Fenceman. I just hate Lavoy made that decision. I'm not a big news watcher, bc it's depressing, but what little I do watch, I've yet to see any headline stories on this subject. Is anyone, who can actually make a difference, saying anything publicly? Any mention of these happenings on the national news? What about the POTUS?

 

[farmguy]

I honestly am trying to understand. From some of the posts I read everyone decides what laws they wish to obey, what government entity they will recognize and basically the only law is what I decide. From my reading it seems some people claim the constitution is the basis for all law but if interpretations I don't like are made then I am obligated to take up arms. So how does this differ from other countries now in turmoil as different factions are engaged in civil war? Is this a country of laws or not?
PS no nasty E mails please because I ask these questions.

 

[hurleyjd]

Are there any figures anywhere as to how many operating ranches are still in this area. Or does any one know and how many cows populate the area.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

Are there any figures anywhere as to how many operating ranches are still in this area. Or does any one know and how many cows populate the area.

Don't know, hurleyjd, but the area is defintely more "ranch country" than "farm country," and I suspect the spreads are pretty good sized. This link breaks down what ag products are produced where in Oregon. Harney County and surrounding are in ranch country. http://media-ofb.oregonfb.org/wp-content/themes/twentyten/pdf_ofb/aitc_oregon_ag_map.pdf

Harney County ag census (couple years old): http://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/2012/Online_Resources/County_Profiles/Oregon/cp41025.pdf

Looks like there are/have been 3 "century farms" in Harney County -- farms/ranches that have been family-owned for 100 or more years. From this link, it appears the three have been narrowed down to maybe only one. ?? http://ocfrp.library.oregonstate.ed...r_value=&combine_2=&field_county_value=harney

 

[W.T]

http://www.local15tv.com/news/features/ ... q0uh2_2ZYc


Harney County Economic Profile
by Jason Yohannan

January 6, 2014



Population Trends: Harney County is Oregon's largest county but has one of the state's smallest populations, the very definition of being sparsely populated. The county's population is trending downward. The 2000 Census counted 7,609 people in Harney County, while the 2010 Census recorded 7,422. According to estimates from Portland State University's Population Research Center, Harney County was down to 7,260 people as of July 1, 2013.

Harney County was one of only three Oregon counties to lose population between 2012 and 2013. Recent years have seen some negative net migration, with more people moving out of the county than moving in.

Labor Force Trends: Job market conditions in Harney County have been difficult lately. The county had Oregon's second-highest annual average unemployment rate in 2009, 2010, and 2011. In 2012, joblessness averaged 12.6 percent, and 2013's unemployment rate should wind up marginally below that figure.

Challenging labor market conditions plus declining population have led to a shrinking labor force. Year-to-date statistics for 2013 suggest that the size of Harney County's labor force is now at its lowest point since the 1960s.

Industry Employment Trends: Total nonfarm payroll employment in Harney County peaked in 1999 but has largely fallen off since then. By 2012, the nonfarm job count was down to its lowest level since 1984. Preliminary figures for 2013 indicate that employment again inched down another notch or two for the year.

Harney County's industry structure once featured several hundred manufacturing workers producing primarily wood products, but the factory sector today claims no more than 10 jobs. The county's largest job category nowadays is government, but employment in even that industry has been trending downward.

Agriculture – which, in Harney County, consists mostly of cattle ranching and hay growers – has been a bright spot for the local economy. The industry is seeing increased sales values and sustained employment levels.

Wage and Income Trends: According to Oregon Employment Department data, the average job in Harney County paid $32,148 in 2012. That was 73 percent of the statewide average.

According to U.S. Census Bureau data, Harney County's median household income was $35,848 in 2012. That also was 73 percent of the statewide median.

 

[dun]

Here is another side of the coin as to why the government manages the land.

http://www.thestranger.com/blogs/slog/2 ... -their-way

And who is to say his story is any more accurate then any one elses. That's why someone without an axe to grind needs to investigate this stuff and accurately report it.

 

[W.T]

The county's largest job category nowadays is government, but employment in even that industry has been trending downward.

In a county that has the largest employer being the government. It would be a challenge to find resistance to government occupation. I cant condone what the Bundys did All I can say is they brought something to the surface that is terribly wrong in the west. If you don't live here you simply don't understand. The spotted Owl, The Desert Tortoise, The Sage grouse. Uncontrolled range fires have caused the demise of the Sage grouse not cattle grazing. Uncontrolled Forrest fire and mismanagement, have caused the demise of the Spotted owl. The Desert Tortoise was not eaten and slaughtered by cattle this is simply, a ridiculous insinuation. In the 1980's I would drive from las Vegas to Northern Nevada and I thought I was running over spiders every night, hell it was little turtles, and the springs that the ranchers develop give the sparse Desert its only constant water supply. Many new laws are enacted by congress every year that no one ever hears about. "Just like Nancy Pelosi stated well we have to pass it before we know what's in it". Way too many special interest groups in the east that influence what goes on in the west. And that is why the injustice to The Hammonds should infuriate each and everyone of us on this site. If it does not, you are simply not part of the solution. when the BLM district manager is married to the Malheur wildlife refuge manager There is serious conflict of interest. The 9th circuit court's outcome is extremely predictable. This is the sense of frustration that most western ranchers deal with every day. Some speak out and others are seriously afraid to say anything in deep fear of reprisal by Government employees, that form the majority of the local community. In our community BLM employees have been instructed not to befriend ranchers and there families. This is how modern Government works it is real and it is not the right way to build relationships. Again I am reminded of the plight of the American Indian and today Western ranchers have taken there place. Maybe lavoy thought it was a good day to die.

 

[hurleyjd]

Try this site looks like the Rich folks are Tom Sawering the Likes of the Bundys.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/exposin ... e-ranchers

 

[Bigfoot]

Try this site looks like the Rich folks are Tom Sawering the Likes of the Bundys.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/exposin ... e-ranchers

I didn't see my name on that list :lol2:

 

[Ouachita]

..........From my reading it seems some people claim the constitution is the basis for all law but if interpretations I don't like are made then I am obligated to take up arms...........

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--

Edit to say........before someone mentions that I'm quoting the Declaration......I know. Without it, we would not have the Constitution. We are dealing with very similar situations now, as then.