2way and 3waycross explained.

[brihop]

I don't see the 3rd cross being "terminal" in my herd. When crossbreeding you have to use lines that complement eachother......I started with a good angus base. Used polled hereford bulls and on them F1's I put a simmental on them. I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.

On that calf I would plan on using a simangus bull and breeding the herf and tarantaise out of her.

We are talking small numbers with my herd but in 6-7 years of my fall cows and 50-60 head of calves I have yet to have a PB calf out weigh a x-bred one @ weaning time.

You started off with a great system. Your 3rd cross doesn't have to be a non-keeper, & that 1/4 Herf, 1/4 Ang, 1/2 Simm cow can be a highly productive brood cow. However, if your cow is that crossed up already, putting a super crossed up Bull on them (like the Pharo) is only going to create breed mud. I don't think many would use a bull that crossed up, because most folks want some rhyme or reason (good consistency) in their crossing programs. Often times there is an end, unless you stick to a true 2 or 3 breed rotation using bulls with decent maternal traits. In your case, going back to Angus (instead of the CB Pharo) would make a nice rotation. By choosing 3 breeds (that fit the bill and compliment each other) and sticking to them, you can have a nice orderly program.

Doc reiterates a good point about selecting quality within the individual breeds and the importance of breed complimentation in crossbreeding systems... and what fits one person's system may not fit anothers (both based on environment/resources and ultimate market goals).

 

[bhooper]

What do yall think about a 3way cross that would put red or black angus over a brahman X gelbvieh ?

 

[3waycross]

What do yall think about a 3way cross that would put red or black angus over a brahman X gelbvieh ?

I guess it would depend on the purpose of the first cross. Go to the Gelbvieh website and look up "Southern Balancers". The perchantages are different but it might answer your questions.

http://www.gelbvieh.org/whygelbvieh/sou ... ancer.html

 

[bhooper]

What do yall think about a 3way cross that would put red or black angus over a brahman X gelbvieh ?

I guess it would depend on the purpose of the first cross. Go to the Gelbvieh website and look up "Southern Balancers". The perchantages are different but it might answer your questions.

http://www.gelbvieh.org/whygelbvieh/sou ... ancer.html

I just like the idea of maximum heterosis with the english over the continental X bos indicus and still having the marketability of an angus sired calf.

 

[Caustic Burno]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an165

http://msucares.com/livestock/beef/geneticslunch4.pdf

Both of these are a pretty good read if you are interested in using Brahman cattle.

 

[brihop]

Although it all depends on the genetics of the individual animals selected for breeding, some would say that on average a BRXGV cow is going to be a bit larger and heavier milking (i.e. higher maintenance) than a BRXAng cow... Therefore the way to go would be the F1 brangus cow bred to a GV bull. However, ain't nothing "wrong" with your proposed cross.

 

[bhooper]

Yes that's a good point I would definitely have to select the gelbviehs and brahmans that were average maybe even low milkers because heterosis will give a moderate boost to the f1s milking ability.

 

[dun]

I'm no whiz at math so I kept the numbers simple. A medium/large frame 650 lb calf ata buck and a quarter is the dollar equivilent of a 812 small/medium calf at a buck a pound. 2 bits a pound is about the normal dock here for the 2 size classes

 

[Rowdy]

The third cross is terminal. Continentals go over the top. Read and re read. And then read it again.

Example:
Angus x herf F1 bred char


In the south:

Brangus x herf F1 bred char
Gert x herf...

 

[Stocker Steve]

I'm no whiz at math so I kept the numbers simple. A medium/large frame 650 lb calf ata buck and a quarter is the dollar equivilent of a 812 small/medium calf at a buck a pound. 2 bits a pound is about the normal dock here for the 2 size classes

What % of your Missouri calves are small/medium ?

 

[Blonde d'Aquitaine]

Hello from Germany:
Farmers under tropical conditions can use the advantages of hybrid vigor by crossing Bos indicus cows with Bos taurus. These pictures clearly show that you can improve the production, in this case by using Blonde d'Aquitaine bulls. The question is what to do with the F1 heifers. Most of the farmers use a Brahman bull of them. And than again a Bos taurus to try to stabilize in 5/8 Bos taurus 3/8 Bos indicus.
I you want toleran more about Blonde d'Aqutaine, please visit our website: http://www.blonde-d-aurach.de.
I wish you all a nice Sunday.

 

[houstoncutter]

A Blonde F1 Brimmer cross would have a tough time making it on the Gulf Coast. It would be just too dam big, grass quality just wouldn't sufficient.

 

[CKC1586]

Hello from Germany:
Farmers under tropical conditions can use the advantages of hybrid vigor by crossing Bos indicus cows with Bos taurus. These pictures clearly show that you can improve the production, in this case by using Blonde d'Aquitaine bulls. The question is what to do with the F1 heifers. Most of the farmers use a Brahman bull of them. And than again a Bos taurus to try to stabilize in 5/8 Bos taurus 3/8 Bos indicus.
I you want toleran more about Blonde d'Aqutaine, please visit our website: http://www.blonde-d-aurach.de.
I wish you all a nice Sunday.

Good looking group! Welcome to the boards! :tiphat:

 

[avatar25]

There is heterosis in a crossbred bull. Crossbred bulls, on the average, are more vigorous, hardy, sexually aggressive, and fertile than the average of their purebred parents.

 

[avatar25]

3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

What I was told on this is if you use a Balancer that is a GV/Angus cow then if you want to standardize the offspring a little more to go the other way with a Angus/GV bull. Just a theory based on anecdotal experience not empirical data. I am going to try it on some heifers that I am keeping this fall they are all 3 out of the Angus/GV cross and I will use semen from a GV/Angus Balancer bull on them. 2 are 3/4 sisters and the other is unrelated. So even tho it's a small group it will give me something to compare.

Not true. Has no genetic effect on variability of offspring

 

[3waycross]

3way I think mostly because of having 4 breeds the consitancy gets lost a little bit. Kinda like these club calves. I am still pursueing making some 4way calves, will they be used as bulls? Time will tell. I think the females will make great cows and will more than likely mate them to F1 bulls......

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

What I was told on this is if you use a Balancer that is a GV/Angus cow then if you want to standardize the offspring a little more to go the other way with a Angus/GV bull. Just a theory based on anecdotal experience not empirical data. I am going to try it on some heifers that I am keeping this fall they are all 3 out of the Angus/GV cross and I will use semen from a GV/Angus Balancer bull on them. 2 are 3/4 sisters and the other is unrelated. So even tho it's a small group it will give me something to compare.

Not true. Has no genetic effect on variability of offspring

I didn't say it was. In fact I said it was all anecdotal but thanks for your input. I guess I just assumed that everyone knew what anecdotal means. Now if you have some Empirical data to support your statement I would love to see it. If not then I guess your statement is also anecdotal and not worth much more than mine. ;-)

 

[double v]

Avatar what supporting data do you have, this info comes from the red angus association as an explanation of the benefits of the 3waycross and what you can gain. I would like to see were and what info you are using. Also can you give us a little info on you what you raise how many and so on. Thanks for sharing

 

[Blonde d'Aquitaine]

We use in Germany Blonde d'Aquitaine for crossbreeding programs with Simmental and Limousine. based on the European carcasses evaluation is this a very good solution. Blonde d'Aquitaine has also good character and is easy calving. They work very good under tropical conditions, as you can see in the following pictures showing F1 Blonde X Brahman:





For more information about Blonde d'Aquitaine please visit our website www.blonde-d-aurach.de

 

[Blonde d'Aquitaine]

What about using Fullblood Homozygous Polled Blonde d'Aquitaine for terminal cross?. Here you can see a short video about a bull calf in Austria. http://bit.ly/Rainier-bull-calf

 

[CKC1586]

What about using Fullblood Homozygous Polled Blonde d'Aquitaine for terminal cross?. Here you can see a short video about a bull calf in Austria. http://bit.ly/Rainier-bull-calf

Nice looking young fella! Hopefully he will grow up to do a good job for you. :tiphat: