2way and 3waycross explained.

[3waycross]

What about using Fullblood Homozygous Polled Blonde d'Aquitaine for terminal cross?. Here you can see a short video about a bull calf in Austria. http://bit.ly/Rainier-bull-calf

This thread was started to help people understand the concept of crossbreeding to achieve hybred vigor. Not to be a place to advertise your breed.
We all know about Blonde's and what they can do.
Please stop advertising here

 

[WalnutCrest]

If a two-way cross stabilizes at 66% heterosis ... and ... a three-way cross stabilizes at 83% heterosis ... does a four-way cross stabilize at about 90% and a five-way cross at about 94%?

In other words, is Nesikep's "perpetual cross" herd (i.e., an unbroken string of X number of new breeds of bulls) going to run close to 100% heterosis?

So, if maximizing your heterosis is the goal, one should look to bring in blood that is as unrelated as is reasonably possible to your existing herd ... while maintaining as consistent phenotype as possible ... right?

 

[Nesikep]

I think that would depend a lot on how related the breeds are.. even though 'simangus' and 'simbrah' are considered breeds, I don't think you'd get as much heterosis by putting them over a simm cow, or not as much as herf x simm at least.

As for me, I do try for a consistent phenotype, though it's a bit of a moving goalpost.. I find strong points in different breeds, and perhaps when I'm a really old man I'll have the formula for what suits me nicely... One that I'm liking the results of so far is 1/4 Saler, 1/4 SH, and 1/2 Gelbvieh.. seems to produce a really good animal.. I have a Limo now, but until I see how the calves do (as cows) the jury is out.

 

[WalnutCrest]

There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ... just pick the best bulls to use and keep the best, most fertile daughters.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I have 2 put together cow herds in two different grazing cells now so I sort them:

The "farm team" gets a black terminal bulls. Two long black Limis out of Wulf bloodlines this year. No retained heifers. Most calves are Limi x English 2 way cross.

The "major league team" gets one round of AI and then balancer or limi flex clean up bulls. Some retained heifers. I have quite a few over the years and the most maternal ones tend to be herf or sh x balancer. Do you like this 3 way cross ?

It hurts a bit, but I have been AIing the 3 way heifers back to calving ease angus. Still a 3 way but now 5/8 angus...

 

[3waycross]

I have 2 put together cow herds in two different grazing cells now so I sort them:

The "farm team" gets a black terminal bulls. Two black Limis out of Wulf bloodlines this year. No retained heifers. Calves are Limi x English 2 way cross.

The "major league team" gets one round of AI and then balancer or limi flex clean up bulls. Some retained heifers. Most maternal ones tend to be herf or sh x balancer. Do you agree that this a good 3 way cross ?

yes

 

[Nesikep]

There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ... just pick the best bulls to use and keep the best, most fertile daughters.

That's very true, and I try not to pass judgement on a breed from one bull, no matter how tempting that is!... The only thing that worries me a bit about my Limo is he's TALL, and the SH X cows are tall too, so I don't know what I'm going to end up with there... However, the bull's mother wasn't a massive cow so we'll just have to see.. At least he's got meat on his frame

 

[Stocker Steve]

There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ...

When I was picking out my Limi bulls there was one in the pen that was obviously not as growthy. The breeder positioned him as "moderate frame".

So was he a good bull or not?

 

[3waycross]

There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ...

When I was picking out my Limi bulls there was one in the pen that was obviously not as growthy. The breeder positioned him as "moderate frame".

So was he a good bull or not?

To me, growthy is not how big he is but how fast he got that big.

 

[WalnutCrest]

There is enough quality variation in all breeds that is difficult to be definitive on breed composition ...

When I was picking out my Limi bulls there was one in the pen that was obviously not as growthy. The breeder positioned him as "moderate frame".

So was he a good bull or not?

To me, growthy is not how big he is but how fast he got that big.

+1

 

[Stocker Steve]

To me, growthy is not how big he is but how fast he got that big.

BW was about 6# below herd average.
Weaning weight was about 40# below herd average.

 

[Nesikep]

I would consider him as a heifer bull perhaps in that case, though these days it seems like you don't have to sacrifice that much weaning weight to to save BW. Our limo bull was about 10 lbs above herd average BW, but when I picked him up at 18 months he was a far more impressive animal, his WW was somewhere around the 700's, but I don't know how that corresponded with the herd average

Edit, just looked him up, WW was 800, adjusted to 694, BW was 91, YW was 1250 adjusted to 1155

 

[CKC1586]

If you read the article it will go into purebred breeding and terminal sires , read first then comment. That article helps both purebred breeders and the commercial breeder.

An informed opinion, wouldn't that be great! But an opinion is the right of each of us to have. As my Dad always said, "opinions are like assholes, everyone has one". He was a wise man. :tiphat:

 

[sandhillguy]

Hi I am kinda the new kid on the block and was looking for insight on crossbreeding. I just started my herd a few years ago with black Angus and 2 years ago I had a chance to grow my herd by leasing a bunch of red Angus bred heifers. Last year thinking I wanted to breed out the red so I put some black bulls on my reds. Both colors having traits i'm looking for such as frame, milk,ect...

My question for you guys is would I be ahead to stick with one of the breeds or crossing breeding to get some different blood lines in there then pick a breed to stick with.

Note: I am just a commercial breeder and not looking to raise seed stock or register any thing

Thanks

 

[Banjo]

Will there be varying degrees of hertosis even in the F1 cross? If I get a Bull A and breed to Cow B and Bull A comes from parents that aren't related or not very closely related within the breed...basically outcrossed within the breed, am I going to get the same bang, spark(hertosis) that I would using a bull that comes from a closed herd and has been linebred fairly heavy?
My thoughts are if that bull is wound a little tighter, you'll get more hertosis. Thoughts anyone.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Just to continue a thread that hasn't seen any action in a while ...

The more distantly relayed the three breeds, the more significant the heterosis. For example:

(Continental x Sanga) x Indicus
(British x Indicus) x Sanga
(Sanga x Indicus) x either British or Continental

...provide far more heterosis than (British x British) x Continental.

 

[gaurus]

The more distantly relayed the three breeds, the more significant the heterosis.

True, but sometimes too distantly related breeds will cause more harm than good even if their heterosis% is very high statistically speaking.

For example (Bos indicus x Bos grunniens) x Bison will show the biggest hybrid vigor of any possible cross, but it will be a wash at the feedlot or will prove to be a poor gainer. a British/Continental cross will prove to be more profitable, so while hybrid vigor is good, breed complementation is better... :cboy:

 

[WalnutCrest]

The more distantly relayed the three breeds, the more significant the heterosis.

True, but sometimes too distantly related breeds will cause more harm than good even if their heterosis% is very high statistically speaking.

For example (Bos indicus x Bos grunniens) x Bison will show the biggest hybrid vigor of any possible cross, but it will be a wash at the feedlot or will prove to be a poor gainer. a British/Continental cross will prove to be more profitable, so while hybrid vigor is good, breed complementation is better... :cboy:

(Indicus x. Grunniens) x. Bison = highly likely to have fertility problems = bad example of heterosis = not something I'd ever recommend to anyone

Good heterosis = good fertility & growth

Bad heterosis = low number at the end of a formula, and pretty much nothing else

 

[WalnutCrest]

Just to continue a thread that hasn't seen any action in a while ...

The more distantly relayed the three breeds, the more significant the heterosis. For example:

(Continental x Sanga) x Indicus
(British x Indicus) x Sanga
(Sanga x Indicus) x either British or Continental

...provide far more heterosis than (British x British) x Continental.

Following upon this after returning from my trip to France ... if I wanted to get a super three way rotation working, I'd start by contracting with the best Brahman females to AI them to either Aubrac or Murray Grey where you're buying all the heifers at a pre-agreed to formula ... then ... using either Aubrac or MG on them ... then Brahman on top of those.

At any time you wanted, you could throw a homozygous black bull in there to get black calves if you thought you needed some.

Good grief, those would be some great mamas.

Throw a terminal Char bull in the pasture for some real scale mashers...

 

[True Grit Farms]

Just to continue a thread that hasn't seen any action in a while ...

The more distantly relayed the three breeds, the more significant the heterosis. For example:

(Continental x Sanga) x Indicus
(British x Indicus) x Sanga
(Sanga x Indicus) x either British or Continental

...provide far more heterosis than (British x British) x Continental.

Following upon this after returning from my trip to France ... if I wanted to get a super three way rotation working, I'd start by contracting with the best Brahman females to AI them to either Aubrac or Murray Grey where you're buying all the heifers at a pre-agreed to formula ... then ... using either Aubrac or MG on them ... then Brahman on top of those.

At any time you wanted, you could throw a homozygous black bull in there to get black calves if you thought you needed some.

Good grief, those would be some great mamas.

Throw a terminal Char bull in the pasture for some real scale mashers...

Make sure to have a shovel or backhoe ready come calving season.