2way and 3waycross explained.

[fitz]

Thanks again Dun. I'll study on that Gelbvieh possibility.

fitz

 

[VanC]

I can't get the entire article to come up on my computer but what I can see seems to be about rotational crossbreeding. Some of you seem to be talking about a straight 3-breed cross, which is not the same thing as a 3-breed rotation.

As an example, a straight 3-breed cross would be when you have Hereford x Angus cows and you breed them to a Char bull, then repeat that every breeding season. Main problem is finding a source for replacements if you don't have the room to make them yourself.

In a 3-breed rotation you breed Hereford cows to an Angus bull. Those daughters are then bred to a Char bull, those daughters are bred back to a Hereford bull, those daughters are bred back to an Angus bull, those daughters are bred back to a Char bull and so on. The cows are always bred back to the bull that she is least related to by breed and once this gets going the heterosis stabilizes at about 86%. The main problem with this is you either need to use AI or you need to have 3 breeding pastures with a different breed of bull in each one. If you run the cows together you need to keep good records so you know the breed makeup of the cow so you know which breed of bull to breed her to. The good news is there will always be an ample supply of replacements on your own place so you don't need to look elsewhere for those.

A 2-breed rotation is the same only with 2 breeds instead of three. Hereford cows to an Angus bull. Those daughters are bred back to a Hereford bull. Those daughters are bred back to an Angus bull and so on. The heterosis will stabilize at about 66%. Again, there will always be a good supply of replacements without having to look elsewhere.

 

[Keren]

May I just add that there is no more heterosis mating a crossbred bull A x B to a purebred cow C than to mate a bull A to a cow B.

The three way cross benefits occur only if the cow is crossbred! :2cents:

Why is that? Doesn't make logical sense to me. Granted I haven't read the link yet.

That is because heterosis is basically the benefits of non-homozygosity and that is achieved in the first cross. The point of threeway crosses is that the cow is crossbred, with all the positives from that, and the calf has the positives from it being crossbred. Of course a calf benefits from having a mother that is healthier, milk more and care a little more for it than a purebred cow would.

This is also why it does not matter in terms of heterosis if the calfs father is a crossbred or not.
However; crossbred bulls are negative for consistency in the calf crop in the same way crossbred cows are, but without the benefits.

Ah that makes perfect sense! Thanks for explaining that for me. Also for whoever said they haven't had a purebred outweigh a crossbred calf at weaning, I have. It just depends on good genetics be they in the purebred or crossbred herd

 

[DOC HARRIS]

"Also for whoever said they haven't had a purebred outweigh a crossbred calf at weaning, I have. It just depends on good genetics be they in the purebred or crossbred herd"

This quote by Keren covers the problem which has been threading itself throughout this entire discussion - which is - everyone who has interjected a post here has overlooked the one primary fact that is glaringly absent in all of the comments offered - and that is the importance of the genetic composition of the breeding individuals, WHATEVER particular breed they may happen to be!

Skimming through all of the comments expressed herein I have not found any deviation from the 'same old - same old' focusing on Phenotype traits, but ignoring genetic and functional traits and characteristics which every breeder must address in his particular herd makeup. Crossbreeding, of necessity, involves mating one, two, three, or more 'specific' breeds in the process of achieving progeny, but one CANNOT overlook the genetic composition of the individual cows and bulls.

Crossbreeding offers two primary advantages: heterosis (hybrid vigor) and the opportunity of breed complementarity! When the performance (NOT just what they look like - Phenotype) of crossbred offspring exceeds the performance of the purebred parents, the difference is called heterosis. The determination of those traits and characteristics comes from the accumulation and culmination of the genes provided by the bull and cow. The particular breed is of great importance, but the visual appraisal of the individuals must be enhanced by EPD's, and more recently the use of DNA has focused selection choices more specifically on accurate, dependable and predictable merit values of the individual breeding animals - rather than employing the time-worn rhetoric of "breed A is better? than breed H, or G, or S, or T, or any other choice of alphabetized talking points. "Better" is a vague, indeterminate and ambiguous description of an individual animal which signifys - not very much.

In your crossbreeding protocols, utilize specific breeds for specific 'heritability' factors. Reproductive traits will respond the most to crossbreeding - carcass traits the least.

Remember, in the final analysis, it's all in the 'Genes", not just in the "looks".

DOC HARRIS

 

[ANAZAZI]

That is because heterosis is basically the benefits of non-homozygosity and that is achieved in the first cross. The point of threeway crosses is that the cow is crossbred, with all the positives from that, and the calf has the positives from it being crossbred. Of course a calf benefits from having a mother that is healthier, milk more and care a little more for it than a purebred cow would.

This is also why it does not matter in terms of heterosis if the calfs father is a crossbred or not.
However; crossbred bulls are negative for consistency in the calf crop in the same way crossbred cows are, but without the benefits.

Ah that makes perfect sense! Thanks for explaining that for me. Also for whoever said they haven't had a purebred outweigh a crossbred calf at weaning, I have. It just depends on good genetics be they in the purebred or crossbred herd

If the crossbred calvf and the purebred calf have the same sire, that tells you that one cow is so much better than the other that the heterosis is not obvious. Next year, change the bull so the good cow gets a crossbred calf and the bad cow gets a purebred. Trust me they will now show true difference.

 

[redcowsrule33]

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.

I didn't write that!

Didn't intentionally misrepresent you, 3 way, just didn't notice the wrong author was on the quote after I pared back the quotations. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Nesikep]

I have a bit of a question, though I do see the point of the article, and I'm not in a position where I can take advantage of it...

It doesn't sound like it matters too much how many breeds the cows have in them (10 way cross anyone?), but more that they are not bred back to a breed that they are most related to...

If my prior assumption is at least partly accurate, then I can make use of this model to an extent. My cows are mostly 3 way crosses (herf, RA or Saler, and Shorthorn), with some being 2 way crosses (Herf, SH or GV)... In all cases Hereford is the least, however I don't plan on going back to that, so I'm looking into Saler, Simm or Limo bulls for the future, but it will be a number of years before I get new bull (time to research).

does this sound reasonable?

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have a bit of a question, though I do see the point of the article, and I'm not in a position where I can take advantage of it...

It doesn't sound like it matters too much how many breeds the cows have in them (10 way cross anyone?), but more that they are not bred back to a breed that they are most related to...

If my prior assumption is at least partly accurate, then I can make use of this model to an extent. My cows are mostly 3 way crosses (herf, RA or Saler, and Shorthorn), with some being 2 way crosses (Herf, SH or GV)... In all cases Hereford is the least, however I don't plan on going back to that, so I'm looking into Saler, Simm or Limo bulls for the future, but it will be a number of years before I get new bull (time to research).

does this sound reasonable?

Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

 

[dun]

Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Why would it be any worse the angus Hereford?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Why would it be any worse the angus Hereford?

Dun I have no clue but in studies it gives the lowest weaning rates of the crosses. The reason being English they have a common ancestory and been selected for many of the same traits. Angus is a little better but not much it is just popular.
There are much better crosses for hybred vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.
.
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 152web.pdf

 

[dun]

Question why would you cross S/H with Hereford of all the crosses this the absolute worse for hybred vigor.

Why would it be any worse the angus Hereford?

Dun I have no clue but in studies it gives the lowest weaning rates of the crosses. The reason being English they have a common ancestory and been selected for many of the same traits. Angus is a little better but not much it is just popular.
There are much better crosses for hybred vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.
.
http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 152web.pdf

Interesting. As screwed up as Shorthorns have gotten with all of the chi and maine influence I would expect them to do better then straight british. When we had the old style Shorthorns that weren;t all crossed up they did well with Angus and Lincoln Reds and even the Gerts put some serious growth on them. Remember I'm talking 30 plus years ago. Haven;t seen enough Shorthorns lately that I would waste my time with.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

never heard of lincoln reds before

 

[dun]

never heard of lincoln reds before

We used them AI in the 70s. Tiny calves at birth that grew like mad and ended up almost as big as the continental breeds of the time.

 

[Stocker Steve]

There are much better crosses for hybrid vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.


Char?

 

[Caustic Burno]

There are much better crosses for hybrid vigor and increased weaning weaning weight's You get 4 to 5% on that cross the others you get 10.


Char?

Char will get you there introduce some Brahman Charbray, Brangus etc. and get 20% free.
http://www.ionet.net/~brahman/brahmanF.html

 

[Stocker Steve]

Interesting link. What kind of SH do they have in Oklahoma - - according to this they out gain all the continental breeds?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Interesting link. What kind of SH do they have in Oklahoma - - according to this they out gain all the continental breeds?

Neighbor has a registered herd, they are big cow's . He does very well with them selling to the show bunch.
Calves grow good but he takes a hit at the salebarn, I always figured it was the wild color's. Color would make you think longhorn influence, conformation rules that out, cause there is not one hatchet ass calf in the bunch.

 

[Nesikep]

We started out our herd with a bunch of herf cows, some may have had RA or simm in them. What I'm trying to say is keep breeding your cows to a new breed, you should end up with heterosis just the same, you'd just have to give very long descriptions of the breed of every cow... The point of the article seems to be don't breed a crossbred cow to a bull to which she has a breed relation to.

I can see it in our herd, we had 2 of our best cows (1/2 Shorthorn) give us 2 heifer calves in a row, the first year they were line bred, the second year they were bred to a different shorthorn bull, and none of the 4 heifers turned out to be much.

 

[Ouachita]

This thread makes my head spin. I've got to post some pictures of my cattle, so you folks can critique them, tell me what you would keep or cull, and what bull you would put with them. Sound OK? Of course I'll start a new thread. Don't wanna muddy this one up with pics of my cattle

 

[Stocker Steve]

Interesting link. What kind of SH do they have in Oklahoma - - according to this they out gain all the continental breeds?

Neighbor has a registered herd, they are big cow's . He does very well with them selling to the show bunch.
Calves grow good but he takes a hit at the salebarn,

My local SH cows are going fast. Seem have have a lot of poor bags or bottle teats or odd colored calves. I have seen some really nice red sh north and west of here.
Have been raising a lot of HxA calves recently. I really like good Herf cows and pink eye vaccine. Need to buy more. Some variation in the wf calves but I only keep the great ones. :nod:
Used 2 limi bulls on the cows last year. Lots more muscle in the calves. Will be interesting to see how they sell.
Used low BW angus on the heifers last year. Calves look like goats compared to the Limi x.