2way and 3waycross explained.

[fitz]

As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

 

[ALACOWMAN]

you will hit your lick adding a third cross to em it was for me anyway

 

[dun]

As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Nope the best would be a third pure breed to be used on the F1 cows. That would be for terminal calves. That's always been one of the problems with crossbreeding is having a source for either good F1s or having to keep some purebred cows to be used to make those F1s

 

[Till-Hill]

I don't see the 3rd cross being "terminal" in my herd. When crossbreeding you have to use lines that complement eachother......I started with a good angus base. Used polled hereford bulls and on them F1's I put a simmental on them. I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.

On that calf I would plan on using a simangus bull and breeding the herf and tarantaise out of her.

We are talking small numbers with my herd but in 6-7 years of my fall cows and 50-60 head of calves I have yet to have a PB calf out weigh a x-bred one @ weaning time.

 

[Beef Man]

My o my so goes the mongrel''ization of some beef cattle. The good well thoughtout crossbreeding programs being used today are the true moneymakers,for all segments of the industry. Why mess with such a mixture unless you just want tosee what they would look like.

 

[3waycross]

My o my so goes the mongrel''ization of some beef cattle. The good well thoughtout crossbreeding programs being used today are the true moneymakers,for all segments of the industry. Why mess with such a mixture unless you just want tosee what they would look like.

Did you actually read the research. If so then are you saying that heterosis is BS?

 

[ANAZAZI]

My o my so goes the mongrel''ization of some beef cattle. The good well thoughtout crossbreeding programs being used today are the true moneymakers,for all segments of the industry. Why mess with such a mixture unless you just want tosee what they would look like.

Did you actually read the research. If so then are you saying that heterosis is BS?

I think he is referring to tillhills experiment. Not to crossbreeding in general nor is he denying the great effects of heterosis.

 

[3waycross]

You are probably right I need to start using the 2.5 diopter reading glasses more often.

 

[Till-Hill]

Well I'm not saying my crossbred cattle ain't crossed up something but what is 90% of the U.S. commercial herd and the calves hitting the sale barn? Most people started with angus or hereford cows, then used the the angus bull on the herf cows then a few years later they ran a big old yellow and white simmy, then maybe a char, then a maine, then a saler, and on and on......

I'm just hoping with a planned cross the results will be better and if not, they will sure fit in with most of the commercial operations in the world today.

And what are these club calves today?

I mean in the end all a beef man needs is a cow to lay down and calve unassisted raise a big calf and do it for years to come.

 

[redcowsrule33]

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.

 

[3waycross]

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.

I didn't write that!

 

[Till-Hill]

On another note of crossbreeding doesn't consistancy get better when you use an F1 x F1, say a simangus x simangus? I am trying some of that too but it is hard when most of the half bloods are all related and I don't linebreed.......

In a word, no. Think about it. In an F1 cross you are guaranteed that 50% of the genetics come from Simmental and 50% from Angus. However, when you do and F1 x F1, there is no guarantee of what breed the genes will come from. Sperm from an F1 will be a mix of genes that range from 100% Simmental to 100% Angus based on probability. Same with the cow (ok, the mitochondrial DNA from the dam will be exclusively from her dam so it depends on the breed of the dam of the F1 but let's not confound things). So you end up with a bunch of calves that are very inconsistent; the F2 cross will give you maximum inconsistency. Creating a breed from other breeds takes a long time as you need to select continually for consistency in the traits you desire until you get a group of cattle that breeds true.

If you want a good example of what I'm talking about google pictures of F1 Golden Doodles (dogs) and F2 Golden Doodles (or Labradoodles). I'm not a Doodle fan or of any designer dog for that matter but they provide an excellent visual of what happens when you cross F1's.

Haha I see what your stepping in! Well I guess I will have to keep some PB cows around. I don't want to really make a new "breed" I just want to make a group of cows that are what I want and need! I seem to be going in the right direction and only time will tell.

 

[double v]

Till-Hill why change seems like you have it all figured out, those people who did the research and studies probaly don't know anything. After reading some of these post i can see that i've been doing this cow thing wrong, science and research can be thrown out. In the link it tells you how to maximize your herd its a model, use it its been proven. I shared that link with 3- way because it makes sense and maybe just maybe someone would read it and benefit from it. Isn't the goal better genetics to produce a better product. I'll get off the soap box now but this is why i limited my post people will argue over help(ideals) for sucess.

 

[Till-Hill]

Double V I am in no way argueing with you or the table of the %'s of hybred vigor. A herf x angus cow mated to a char bull will make a man some money. I am just trying to make more females out of these F1's I got around. I'm also not saying it's not perfect but isn't an F1 x F1 steer going to be better than a PB steer?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I dont see it... you cant make a F1 reproduce herself..

 

[Stocker Steve]

I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.

I looked at these 2 and 3 way Tarantaise based bulls Pharo offers and I could not understand what you would use them for. Perhaps a terminal cross on pure breds?

It did not look like there are many sold so others must be confused as well. Any tips here?

 

[fitz]

As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Nope the best would be a third pure breed to be used on the F1 cows. That would be for terminal calves. That's always been one of the problems with crossbreeding is having a source for either good F1s or having to keep some purebred cows to be used to make those F1s

Thanks Dun & Alacowman. Would you have any suggestions for consideration. Guess I'd need to stay black to satisfy the market. He'd have to learn to live off fescue and stilt grass.

fitz

 

[Till-Hill]

I dont see it... you cant make a F1 reproduce herself..

Well not exactly I suppose but using a simangus bull on a simangus cow is what I mean and keeping a 50%sim 50%ang calf......

 

[Till-Hill]

I am hoping I can say they will be my best cows but my first one is due today. On her I used a herf/angus/tarantaise Pharo composite bull to end up with about a 25% of each breed calf and she is carrying a heifer.

I looked at these 2 and 3 way Tarantaise based bulls Pharo offers and I could not understand what you would use them for. Perhaps a terminal cross on pure breds?

It did not look like there are many sold so others must be confused as well. Any tips here?

I used Buckaroo to try and get an even 4-way cross calf to experiment with is all I guess. We will find out what happens. Born today out of first calf heifer, 62.5lbs and running like the wind even in all this rain and mud. I also used him because of what PCC had to say about him, click on the link
http://www.pharocattle.com/Semen-Source ... posite.htm

 

[dun]

As you guys know by now I'm a little slow so clear the water for me.

I'm running simmental cows with an Angus Bull. I really like the heifers I'm getting. So, if I start retaining these heifers, transform my herd to this base of cow, the best way for me to go with them is back to a Simmental Bull?

fitz

Nope the best would be a third pure breed to be used on the F1 cows. That would be for terminal calves. That's always been one of the problems with crossbreeding is having a source for either good F1s or having to keep some purebred cows to be used to make those F1s

Thanks Dun & Alacowman. Would you have any suggestions for consideration. Guess I'd need to stay black to satisfy the market. He'd have to learn to live off fescue and stilt grass.

fitz

If you're looking for YG on the calves I would use Gelbvieh, for Quality grade one of the high grading Hereford bulls.