KNERSIE":35b5huby said:
Doc,
I seldom disagree with you, but this time I have to. Finishing cattle on forage only requires an early maturing type, in other words one that would have finished his long bone growth at an early age so he can start packing on finish (fat).
Continentals would maximise heteroses, but they are almost all later maturing and finishing them on grass would still be very possible, but it would take longer. The sooner you can finish them the sooner you can put another one in his place and the sooner you'll have cash in your pocket.
I would suggest using a crossbred cowherd to use the heterosis in the added maternal ability and crossing with a third British breed.
My choice would be Murray GreyXshorthorn cows and breed them to a well muscled frame 5 hereford bull. The only reason I did not suggest Angus is because well muscled cattle is a must in a grass finished program, but if you use the right type of angus you can replace either the MG or the shorthorn in the maternal cross. Good milkers can take quite a few months away in the finishing process.
Phenotype is going to be crucial as your cow herd must have constitution to able to nurse calves till at least 8 months (9.5 is better) to leave as little as possible to be put on before butchering.
KNERSIE -
I have read your great post several times, and I don't think that you are disagreeing with me, perhaps considering the subject from a slightly different point of view - and not so slightly different at that! Your hypothesis regarding Continentals maximizing heterosis AND finishing them on grass taking longer is applicable ONLY if the Continental EPD's dictate late maturing progeny. I understand the differences between British and Continental phenotypes and genotypes, of course, and I have no argument with that scenario. But here we are differentiating 'strains' of beef cattle within the same species - Terminal and Maternal - and therefore, I would extend the crossbreeding formula, if you will concede that term, to include four, five or perhaps more breeds in the chase for HETEROSIS. By so doing, we are maximizing heterosis instead of diluting the effects every third mating by returning to an "original" breed in the rotation. We must continue to bear in mind the crucial importance of OPTIMAL BLENDING of Phenotype and Genotype traits and characteristics with the
INDIVIDUAL animals involved in the matings.
I feel that THIS phase of mating selections is inordinately ignored and precluded from consideration in planning for progeny. I certainly grant you the fact that these procedures are very time and acreage consuming, but the results at the end of the 'mating-to-profit' season justify the undertaking - IF - the breeder has the determination, faith, confidence and belief that he can be successful at being a Master Breeder.
Consider this postulation before jumping down my throat! In a three-breed crossbreeding system, IF crossbred cow "AB" is bred to bull "C", and the resulting heifer(s) are
backcrossed to either parental breed (A or B or C), the results increase the percentage of INBREEDING - thus reducing hetrerosis. Maximum heterosis is realized in the first cross of different breeds. (Have patience! I am arriving at your 'disagreement' talking point. :nod: ) As per Dr. Jim Posey, subsequent backcrossing to either Parental breed will reduce (or dilute) the expected amount of heterosis realized. It's similar to mixing paint. (but not exactly).
In the consideration of finishing cattle on forage only, I agree totally with you, Knersie, on the requisite of "early maturing" type cattle. This protocol justifies maintaining our cow's sizes at a moderate weight - (plus or minus 1250 # at 4 years of age) and still retain functional characteristics - good feet and legs, femininity, milk production, tight udders and small teats, good disposition - - etc. In order to accomplish this desirable "HERD" status or mode, proper mixing or blending of EPD's which will perpetuate those genetics require crossbreeding protocols which will
NOT dilute heterosis and which will sustain and prolong those traits and characteristics which will encourage early maturity and POSITIVE IMF (marbling) and Ribeye size (NOT an easy achievement). IN MY OPINION - an intelligent crossbreeding precept should include any of the British Breeds, Continental Breeds, and/or bos indicus breeds if the breeder's locale justifies those blood lines, but carefully used in a four or five or more breed mix (using the most optimal genetics available and affordable) to minimize the loss of heterosis and maximize early maturity. Itemizing ALL possibilities could fill a book, but here are a few breed combinations for your pleasure and consideration. :clap: :arrow:
1 - Black Angus (Maternal traits, marbling, calving ease,) X Gelbvieh (low birth weight for a Continental breed, reducing cow size, AND adding muscle) - cross the resulting heifer(s) to Simmental, Charolais or Maine Anjou - PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HIGH FUNCTIONAL EPD'S AND EARLY MATURITY!
2 - Mate THOSE resulting heifers to Hereford, Shorthorn, Irish Blacks, (and numerous other British-type breeds) PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO EPD's to
PREVENT increased cow size and maintaining Early Maturity!
3 - If y ou wish to exacerbate Heterosis and other profitable traits and characteristics, extend your crossbreeding schedule to blend-in Red Angus, Murray Grey, or others, AND THEN return to your original #1 crossesl
I will grant you it would take a lot of land, pastures and several years (10-12) of selecting the BEST from the BEST - BUT -
WOW! what a terrific Beef Factory you would be building.
I hope you all can visualize the possibilities! It takes lots of planning - keeping low cow weight, early maturing and maximum heterosis in the forefront of your plans!
Knersie - I think that we are pretty well on the same train.
DOC HARRIS