100% Grass Raised

[DOC HARRIS]

2. I'm considering taking either high quality Murray Grey, or Shorthorn mama cows and crossing with a high quality Angus bull.

Here's a photo of a half murray/half angus heifer calf
at about 6 months of age....murray bull sire and angus cow
dam:

Here's some steers; both the brown ones with butts toward camera were pretty close to ready for the butcher--they also were sired by murray grey bull and had angus dams:

It makes a good cross, IMO

Very impressive Phenotype!

The bottom line is - Whatever works for you! But the facts are:: CROSSBREEDING is the way to go for Heterosis and Terminal success! And you must include both British AND Continental for optimal crosses.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

Doc,

I seldom disagree with you, but this time I have to. Finishing cattle on forage only requires an early maturing type, in other words one that would have finished his long bone growth at an early age so he can start packing on finish (fat).

Continentals would maximise heteroses, but they are almost all later maturing and finishing them on grass would still be very possible, but it would take longer. The sooner you can finish them the sooner you can put another one in his place and the sooner you'll have cash in your pocket.

I would suggest using a crossbred cowherd to use the heterosis in the added maternal ability and crossing with a third British breed.

My choice would be Murray GreyXshorthorn cows and breed them to a well muscled frame 5 hereford bull. The only reason I did not suggest Angus is because well muscled cattle is a must in a grass finished program, but if you use the right type of angus you can replace either the MG or the shorthorn in the maternal cross. Good milkers can take quite a few months away in the finishing process.

Phenotype is going to be crucial as your cow herd must have constitution to able to nurse calves till at least 8 months (9.5 is better) to leave as little as possible to be put on before butchering.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc,

I seldom disagree with you, but this time I have to. Finishing cattle on forage only requires an early maturing type, in other words one that would have finished his long bone growth at an early age so he can start packing on finish (fat).

Continentals would maximise heteroses, but they are almost all later maturing and finishing them on grass would still be very possible, but it would take longer. The sooner you can finish them the sooner you can put another one in his place and the sooner you'll have cash in your pocket.

I would suggest using a crossbred cowherd to use the heterosis in the added maternal ability and crossing with a third British breed.

My choice would be Murray GreyXshorthorn cows and breed them to a well muscled frame 5 hereford bull. The only reason I did not suggest Angus is because well muscled cattle is a must in a grass finished program, but if you use the right type of angus you can replace either the MG or the shorthorn in the maternal cross. Good milkers can take quite a few months away in the finishing process.

Phenotype is going to be crucial as your cow herd must have constitution to able to nurse calves till at least 8 months (9.5 is better) to leave as little as possible to be put on before butchering.

KNERSIE -

I have read your great post several times, and I don't think that you are disagreeing with me, perhaps considering the subject from a slightly different point of view - and not so slightly different at that! Your hypothesis regarding Continentals maximizing heterosis AND finishing them on grass taking longer is applicable ONLY if the Continental EPD's dictate late maturing progeny. I understand the differences between British and Continental phenotypes and genotypes, of course, and I have no argument with that scenario. But here we are differentiating 'strains' of beef cattle within the same species - Terminal and Maternal - and therefore, I would extend the crossbreeding formula, if you will concede that term, to include four, five or perhaps more breeds in the chase for HETEROSIS. By so doing, we are maximizing heterosis instead of diluting the effects every third mating by returning to an "original" breed in the rotation. We must continue to bear in mind the crucial importance of OPTIMAL BLENDING of Phenotype and Genotype traits and characteristics with the INDIVIDUAL animals involved in the matings.

I feel that THIS phase of mating selections is inordinately ignored and precluded from consideration in planning for progeny. I certainly grant you the fact that these procedures are very time and acreage consuming, but the results at the end of the 'mating-to-profit' season justify the undertaking - IF - the breeder has the determination, faith, confidence and belief that he can be successful at being a Master Breeder.

Consider this postulation before jumping down my throat! In a three-breed crossbreeding system, IF crossbred cow "AB" is bred to bull "C", and the resulting heifer(s) are backcrossed to either parental breed (A or B or C), the results increase the percentage of INBREEDING - thus reducing hetrerosis. Maximum heterosis is realized in the first cross of different breeds. (Have patience! I am arriving at your 'disagreement' talking point. :nod: ) As per Dr. Jim Posey, subsequent backcrossing to either Parental breed will reduce (or dilute) the expected amount of heterosis realized. It's similar to mixing paint. (but not exactly).

In the consideration of finishing cattle on forage only, I agree totally with you, Knersie, on the requisite of "early maturing" type cattle. This protocol justifies maintaining our cow's sizes at a moderate weight - (plus or minus 1250 # at 4 years of age) and still retain functional characteristics - good feet and legs, femininity, milk production, tight udders and small teats, good disposition - - etc. In order to accomplish this desirable "HERD" status or mode, proper mixing or blending of EPD's which will perpetuate those genetics require crossbreeding protocols which will NOT dilute heterosis and which will sustain and prolong those traits and characteristics which will encourage early maturity and POSITIVE IMF (marbling) and Ribeye size (NOT an easy achievement). IN MY OPINION - an intelligent crossbreeding precept should include any of the British Breeds, Continental Breeds, and/or bos indicus breeds if the breeder's locale justifies those blood lines, but carefully used in a four or five or more breed mix (using the most optimal genetics available and affordable) to minimize the loss of heterosis and maximize early maturity. Itemizing ALL possibilities could fill a book, but here are a few breed combinations for your pleasure and consideration. :clap: :arrow:

1 - Black Angus (Maternal traits, marbling, calving ease,) X Gelbvieh (low birth weight for a Continental breed, reducing cow size, AND adding muscle) - cross the resulting heifer(s) to Simmental, Charolais or Maine Anjou - PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HIGH FUNCTIONAL EPD'S AND EARLY MATURITY!

2 - Mate THOSE resulting heifers to Hereford, Shorthorn, Irish Blacks, (and numerous other British-type breeds) PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO EPD's to PREVENT increased cow size and maintaining Early Maturity!

3 - If y ou wish to exacerbate Heterosis and other profitable traits and characteristics, extend your crossbreeding schedule to blend-in Red Angus, Murray Grey, or others, AND THEN return to your original #1 crossesl

I will grant you it would take a lot of land, pastures and several years (10-12) of selecting the BEST from the BEST - BUT - WOW! what a terrific Beef Factory you would be building.

I hope you all can visualize the possibilities! It takes lots of planning - keeping low cow weight, early maturing and maximum heterosis in the forefront of your plans!

Knersie - I think that we are pretty well on the same train.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Boss Cowman]

I'd use black baldy cows with braunvieh of gelbvieh bulls. I thought that gelbvieh and braunvieh were two of the earliest maturing breeds in the cattle world. If I am wrong I'm sure I'll be corrected. The Murray Grey pics are some damn good looking cattle that I sure wouldn't be afraid to use either.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I'd use black baldy cows with braunvieh of gelbvieh bulls. I thought that gelbvieh and braunvieh were two of the earliest maturing breeds in the cattle world. If I am wrong I'm sure I'll be corrected. The Murray Grey pics are some be nice good looking cattle that I sure wouldn't be afraid to use either.

Boss Cowman -

You are not wrong! Your suggested crosses are superb, with the constant caveat that BOTH Bull and Cow(s) have the finest Genetics available! The "Heterosis Pivot Point" now becomes - of what is the NEXT mating going to consist?? And the NEXT? That is where we can really establish strong Heterosis instead of diluting it.

The Murray Grey pics are outstanding cattle.... and Boss C.- your assessment regarding Gelbvieh and Braunvieh is right on! There are many possibilities in crossbreeding - there is just not enough space on these pages to go into great specific detail with all of them.

(Those Murray Grey's are POPPIN' GOOD!)

DOC HARRIS

 

[msscamp]

2. I'm considering taking either high quality Murray Grey, or Shorthorn mama cows and crossing with a high quality Angus bull.

Here's a photo of a half murray/half angus heifer calf
at about 6 months of age....murray bull sire and angus cow
dam:

Here's some steers; both the brown ones with butts toward camera were pretty close to ready for the butcher--they also were sired by murray grey bull and had angus dams:

It makes a good cross, IMO

Yes, it does. Very, very nice, Jeanne, but I'm known to be prejudiced when it comes to Murray Greys! ;-) :lol: :lol:

 

[Brandonm2]

1 - Black Angus (Maternal traits, marbling, calving ease,) X Gelbvieh (low birth weight for a Continental breed, reducing cow size, AND adding muscle) - cross the resulting heifer(s) to Simmental, Charolais or Maine Anjou - PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HIGH FUNCTIONAL EPD'S AND EARLY MATURITY!

2 - Mate THOSE resulting heifers to Hereford, Shorthorn, Irish Blacks, (and numerous other British-type breeds) PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO EPD's to PREVENT increased cow size and maintaining Early Maturity!

3 - If y ou wish to exacerbate Heterosis and other profitable traits and characteristics, extend your crossbreeding schedule to blend-in Red Angus, Murray Grey, or others, AND THEN return to your original #1 crossesl

DOC HARRIS

Doc, we don't disagree often; but this time you are losing me.
Did you just tell him to cross Angus heifers to Gelbviehs ....cross those F1s to an exotic like a Simmie or Char ......cross those F2s to Herfs or another non-Angus British breed .......cross those F3s to Red Angus, Murray Grey , or another British breed not already used.......and then cross those five breed composite heifers back to Angus???? That is getting too complex even if AIing the herd.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

1 - Black Angus (Maternal traits, marbling, calving ease,) X Gelbvieh (low birth weight for a Continental breed, reducing cow size, AND adding muscle) - cross the resulting heifer(s) to Simmental, Charolais or Maine Anjou - PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HIGH FUNCTIONAL EPD'S AND EARLY MATURITY!

2 - Mate THOSE resulting heifers to Hereford, Shorthorn, Irish Blacks, (and numerous other British-type breeds) PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO EPD's to PREVENT increased cow size and maintaining Early Maturity!

3 - If y ou wish to exacerbate Heterosis and other profitable traits and characteristics, extend your crossbreeding schedule to blend-in Red Angus, Murray Grey, or others, AND THEN return to your original #1 crossesl

DOC HARRIS

Doc, we don't disagree often; but this time you are losing me.
Did you just tell him to cross Angus heifers to Gelbviehs ....cross those F1s to an exotic like a Simmie or Char ......cross those F2s to Herfs or another non-Angus British breed .......cross those F3s to Red Angus, Murray Grey , or another British breed not already used.......and then cross those five breed composite heifers back to Angus???? That is getting too complex even if AIing the herd.

Brandomn2 -

It is very complex - so complex very few breeders want to take the time, effort and land space to keep it all straight. But it does keep Heterosis at a high level and minimizes dilution of genetic traits. Now - how important those factors are in the overall management of the average breeder's protocol's is questionable. I merely used these examples to point out the principle of cross breeding with multiple breeds. You can go on the internet and check it out. It is complicated.

Try these:

ttp://www.extension.umn.edu/distributio ... I3926.html

http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/smartcross1.asp

I recommend that you contact Dr. Jim Gosey, Ph.D., Animal Science Department, University of Nebraska, Lincoln, Nebraska. He is the author of an article titled, "Crossbreeding - The Forgotten Tool." I have only part of Part I, but I am sure that you can get more information than you can imagine, and he can explain it in more detail than I can. Understand, the crossbreeding systems utilizing more than the usual Three Breed Cross are time-consuming and difficult to manage, but I used the extended explanation as an example - NOT as a recommendation!

It is fascinating study, and I am sure that you can benefit from the information, whether or not you decide to delve into "Maximum Heterosis" or not. Check out the links I itemized, and any other articles that Google or Dogpile can supply you with. However you manage your breeding programs, using the very highest quality seedstock you can afford is mandatory for financial success.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

My biggest gripe I have with rotational crossbreeding is breeding replacements, In an ideal world with a couple of dozen pastures is will be great, in the real world there are droughts, floods, snow, trees falling over fences, etc.

My point being that managing that type of crossbreeding system will get most small time operators in such a confusion that the result will be a just alternating different bulls and before long it will just be cattle of non-descript breeding.

Another thing to consider is the fibre type of the meat of various breeds, some have a courser grain than others. British cattle typically have a finer grain than Bos Indicus and Continentals. While some breeds are known to be tough. I am not going to name those breeds as that will just start a fight, and I am sure much progress have been made with that regard, but the general perception of the public isn't likely to change soon. Just another reason CAB is so successfull, the made sure the public is aware of the quality of angus beef, and in the public's eye that's the only beef worth having.

 

[Frankie]

1 - Black Angus (Maternal traits, marbling, calving ease,) X Gelbvieh (low birth weight for a Continental breed, reducing cow size, AND adding muscle) - cross the resulting heifer(s) to Simmental, Charolais or Maine Anjou - PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HIGH FUNCTIONAL EPD'S AND EARLY MATURITY!

2 - Mate THOSE resulting heifers to Hereford, Shorthorn, Irish Blacks, (and numerous other British-type breeds) PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO EPD's to PREVENT increased cow size and maintaining Early Maturity!

3 - If y ou wish to exacerbate Heterosis and other profitable traits and characteristics, extend your crossbreeding schedule to blend-in Red Angus, Murray Grey, or others, AND THEN return to your original #1 crossesl

DOC HARRIS

Doc, we don't disagree often; but this time you are losing me.
Did you just tell him to cross Angus heifers to Gelbviehs ....cross those F1s to an exotic like a Simmie or Char ......cross those F2s to Herfs or another non-Angus British breed .......cross those F3s to Red Angus, Murray Grey , or another British breed not already used.......and then cross those five breed composite heifers back to Angus???? That is getting too complex even if AIing the herd.

Brandomn2 -

It is very complex - so complex very few breeders want to take the time, effort and land space to keep it all straight. But it does keep Heterosis at a high level and minimizes dilution of genetic traits. Now - how important those factors are in the overall management of the average breeder's protocol's is questionable. I merely used these examples to point out the principle of cross breeding with multiple breeds. You can go on the internet and check it out. It is complicated.

Try these:

ttp://www.extension.umn.edu/distributio ... I3926.html

http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/smartcross1.asp

I recommend that you contact Dr. Jim Gosey, Ph.D., Animal Science Department, University of Nebraska, Lincoln, Nebraska. He is the author of an article titled, "Crossbreeding - The Forgotten Tool." I have only part of Part I, but I am sure that you can get more information than you can imagine, and he can explain it in more detail than I can. Understand, the crossbreeding systems utilizing more than the usual Three Breed Cross are time-consuming and difficult to manage, but I used the extended explanation as an example - NOT as a recommendation!

It is fascinating study, and I am sure that you can benefit from the information, whether or not you decide to delve into "Maximum Heterosis" or not. Check out the links I itemized, and any other articles that Google or Dogpile can supply you with. However you manage your breeding programs, using the very highest quality seedstock you can afford is mandatory for financial success.

DOC HARRIS

DOC HARRIS

DOC, I thought you were always preaching that we should pay attention to the consumer; that we're raising food. Yet one of the major complaints about beef from consumers and retailers is consistency, size of cuts, eating quality. Your mishmash of breeds and crossbreeds pays not attention to that.

IMO, that's one reason beef lost so much market in the past years, the mongoralizing of our cattle herds. We're starting to get that market share back, but I don't see how three, four, five way cross cows are going to help us out.

 

[MikeC]

Yet one of the major complaints about beef from consumers and retailers is consistency, size of cuts, eating quality. Your mishmash of breeds and crossbreeds pays not attention to that.

IMO, that's one reason beef lost so much market in the past years, the mongoralizing of our cattle herds. We're starting to get that market share back, but I don't see how three, four, five way cross cows are going to help us out.

Surely you jest Frankie. :lol: When one of the more popular breeds can reach only a 13% rate of qualifying for "THEIR OWN" brand of beef, straight out of the feedlots, do you really think that "Going Purebred" is the way to go? :roll:

For one to constantly be preaching "MARC" studies, (that show crossbreds have the ability to reach the target at a higher rate) you are going against their advice now? :lol:

You haven't been paying attention lately either. Yield Grades and Quality Grades are getting WORSE, not better!

Are you seriously doubting the effects of heterosis?

 

[IL Rancher]

Amazing how those hogs are getting all of that consistancy in pork with crossbreeds too... You can get the consistancy with crossbreeding, it just has to be well planned and no helter skelter.

 

[lead_dog]

I've really appreciated reading all these posts and learning from all the experience out there. Certainly I have a lot to learn and little to offer. Clearly there are benefits to heterosis, but it seems hard for me to figure out in advance what the secondary and tertiary breedings should be.

If I could, I'd start with very good Murray Grey cows and breed them to a great Angus bull. I mean, I only have 50 acres of pasture, and my herd will probably never be bigger than 50. My goal is to produce great beef animals that are optimized to do very well on our grass. So much of the later breeding seems like an ongoing management decision of what the herd is lacking at that time, and how can I best add those characteristics in. Could be shorthorn or, who knows. That will determine what the next cross will be.

 

[Aero]

GBerry - Why would Joel buy them instead of raising them...if you're in an environment where you can graze year round, as I plan to, wouldn't it be much cheaper to calve and raise your own?

in that area with good grass, feeding hay for 60-90 days of the winter, you might be able to get 1 cow/calf per acre (optimistic). that's a max of 50 cows. if you are planning on finishing them on grass (i think the average is 18-26 months at harvest). those growing feeder calves will probably cause you to reduce your cow stocking rate to 15-20 or so.

if you sold your calves at weaning, you could have more animals that qualify for the same premiums/program without having so much risk involved in the 10-15 calves you finish per year.

you might get $1200-1500 for the 15 finished calves ($20250)
you might get $400 for 50 weaned calves ($20000)

think about how much simpler management is for selling weaned calves compared to finishing and marketing grass fed animals. find someone who will pay a premium for the calves you raise and selling weaned calves looks even better.

i am not saying you should sell at weaning, just telling you why people do it.

 

[dun]

Heterosis is a wonderful thing, but you can go nuts trying to chase it and catch all you can. For grass finish a ood 2 way or 3 way british breed composaition will keep it simple, with due diligence will keep the FS down to where they can finish on grass in a reasonable amount of time. For grass finished direct sales, those little 4 1/2-5 FS aminals would be about ideal. You won;t have cuts that are too big for the average consumer and you can cut their heads off while they're still young enough that you won;t be paying the price of toughness that can cmoe with age.

dun

 

[Aero]

Heterosis is a wonderful thing, but you can go nuts trying to chase it and catch all you can. For grass finish a ood 2 way or 3 way british breed composaition will keep it simple, with due diligence will keep the FS down to where they can finish on grass in a reasonable amount of time. For grass finished direct sales, those little 4 1/2-5 FS aminals would be about ideal. You won;t have cuts that are too big for the average consumer and you can cut their heads off while they're still young enough that you won;t be paying the price of toughness that can cmoe with age.

dun

as some smart folks have said, heterosis is most valuable in the cow herd. heterosis in feeder calves is a slight bonus.

if you want to maximize your potential to turn a profit, make an F1 cow herd which optimizes longevity and fertility. and while you're at it, have a plan. dont just throw a new breed on the herd every year. you will just end up with an inconsistent rainbow herd that makes mediocre calves like everybody else.

 

[BAGTIC]

Jovid,

"Red Poll Is one of four breeds that the USDA has identified as having tender beef. "

Could you point me to a source for that information so I could see what the others are and how they were measured?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

1 - Black Angus (Maternal traits, marbling, calving ease,) X Gelbvieh (low birth weight for a Continental breed, reducing cow size, AND adding muscle) - cross the resulting heifer(s) to Simmental, Charolais or Maine Anjou - PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO LOW BIRTH WEIGHT, HIGH FUNCTIONAL EPD'S AND EARLY MATURITY!

2 - Mate THOSE resulting heifers to Hereford, Shorthorn, Irish Blacks, (and numerous other British-type breeds) PAYING PARTICULAR ATTENTION TO EPD's to PREVENT increased cow size and maintaining Early Maturity!

3 - If y ou wish to exacerbate Heterosis and other profitable traits and characteristics, extend your crossbreeding schedule to blend-in Red Angus, Murray Grey, or others, AND THEN return to your original #1 crossesl

DOC HARRIS

Doc, we don't disagree often; but this time you are losing me.
Did you just tell him to cross Angus heifers to Gelbviehs ....cross those F1s to an exotic like a Simmie or Char ......cross those F2s to Herfs or another non-Angus British breed .......cross those F3s to Red Angus, Murray Grey , or another British breed not already used.......and then cross those five breed composite heifers back to Angus???? That is getting too complex even if AIing the herd.

Brandomn2 -

It is very complex - so complex very few breeders want to take the time, effort and land space to keep it all straight. But it does keep Heterosis at a high level and minimizes dilution of genetic traits. Now - how important those factors are in the overall management of the average breeder's protocol's is questionable. I merely used these examples to point out the principle of cross breeding with multiple breeds. You can go on the internet and check it out. It is complicated.

Try these:

ttp://www.extension.umn.edu/distributio ... I3926.html

http://www.agonline.com/bullbarn/smartcross1.asp

I recommend that you contact Dr. Jim Gosey, Ph.D., Animal Science Department, University of Nebraska, Lincoln, Nebraska. He is the author of an article titled, "Crossbreeding - The Forgotten Tool." I have only part of Part I, but I am sure that you can get more information than you can imagine, and he can explain it in more detail than I can. Understand, the crossbreeding systems utilizing more than the usual Three Breed Cross are time-consuming and difficult to manage, but I used the extended explanation as an example - NOT as a recommendation!

It is fascinating study, and I am sure that you can benefit from the information, whether or not you decide to delve into "Maximum Heterosis" or not. Check out the links I itemized, and any other articles that Google or Dogpile can supply you with. However you manage your breeding programs, using the very highest quality seedstock you can afford is mandatory for financial success.

DOC HARRIS

 

[OK Jeanne]

Jovid,

"Red Poll Is one of four breeds that the USDA has identified as having tender beef. "

I wish that enough red poll animals had been dna tested
for the tenderness genes to be included in this chart....
there had to be over 100 in each breed tested before
they were used in the chart. The chart was produced
when there were only 2 tenderness factors validated,
ie calpastatin and the original calpain location of genes:

Being in Georgia, maybe you should consider Senepol
cows with a Murray grey bull??

 

[lead_dog]

Jovid,


Being in Georgia, maybe you should consider Senepol
cows with a Murray grey bull??

Senepol is an interesting idea...I assume you mean because of their heat tolerance, right?