Stirring the pot on the LH/corriente topic

Dave said:

And I go back to the actual sale numbers from Superior last week for steers out of this cross. The dollar difference in the first year would pay for buying better cows.

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Not really the point if you don't have the money. Not sorry I bought my cheaper cows and have no debt.

And for someone starting out, it's as much as a pedagogical exercise as it is an investment, so there's that angle. Think there’s a thread on a guy with Belted Galloways or some such. Makes my point. Starting cheap and learning to the point you can efficiently manage the better cows without having a train wreck is probably the wisest choice in this mature business.

And if the aren't going to receive front-pasture care, less money at risk is probably better.

rocfarm said:

Not really the point if you don't have the money. Not sorry I bought my cheaper cows and have no debt.

And for someone starting out, it's as much as a pedagogical exercise as it is an investment, so there's that angle. Think there's a thread on a guy with Belted Galloways or some such. Makes my point. Starting cheap and learning to the point you can efficiently manage the better cows without having a train wreck is probably the wisest choice in this mature business.

And if the aren't going to receive front-pasture care, less money at risk is probably better.

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Did you run the math on Dave's numbers and see what the return per dollar invested was, not how many head?

rocfarm said:

Not really the point if you don't have the money. Not sorry I bought my cheaper cows and have no debt.

And for someone starting out, it's as much as a pedagogical exercise as it is an investment, so there's that angle. Think there's a thread on a guy with Belted Galloways or some such. Makes my point. Starting cheap and learning to the point you can efficiently manage the better cows without having a train wreck is probably the wisest choice in this mature business.

And if the aren't going to receive front-pasture care, less money at risk is probably better.

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There's some wisdom in looking it at it that way. I suspect the Galloways as the example of cheap cattle kind of evolves into the way cheap cattle often pay out poorly. Certainly the guy will find out if it's a train wreck or not. And other poor, cheap cattle have a decent chance of the same outcome... and the same kind of learning experience. It might be considered a learning experience to buy better cows and paying more to see what happens too. Not many people can buy two ways and manage those choices as separate herds to see what the difference in outcome would be.

I kind of ran some numbers in my head and if I'm buying cows culled for age I might be looking at 1300 pound cows in decent condition instead of 1100 hundred pound cows in poor condition, and the price might be $0.05 difference by the pound. So that's five cents a pound difference and an extra two hundred at the same price as the 1100 pound cow for a cow that would probably raise a better calf. Maybe I'd be buying five cows instead of six for the same money. Would the better calves justify the extra expense? Too many other factors to consider. All kinds of variables. Personally I see buying poor cows as giving myself a handicap. The same bull on poor cows may improve the calves a lot more, but they will never be the calves that the better cows would produce and prices would be sure to reflect that. And in selling them we are talking about a greater difference in the price as well as the difference in weights.

It's all speculation. I think I'd rather invest in good prices for my product than in saving money to learn what I need to do to get better prices for my invested money.

Brute 23 said:

Did you run the math on Dave's numbers and see what the return per dollar invested was, not how many head?

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Nope. And he could be right. But ive done nothing for my cheap cows except tubs, cubing them about once a month, and fence mending. Only give blackleg shots to calves. Only preg late. More money and ‘better’ cows would cost more labor and make a huge loss for me if things went wrong. And statistics, you take a bigger risk if one of your ‘fewer’ good cows die. Big loss verse cheap cows x more calves type of thing.

I did get lucky on my cheap cows. Had only a 21 day calving window. I got $5450 back from selling 6 out of 14 head of cattle that I paid about $5100 for, though, so I might not be an uninformed buyer;). We’ll see how the remaining 8 ‘cheap’ cattle perform. Will post next years results in my other chat. Then folks can decide for themselves.

But His numbers could be better, no doubt.

if my Wagyu thing doesn’t work out and my life ever slows down, I think I might just try the Corrientes thing for fun some day.

Travlr said:

There's some wisdom in looking it at it that way. I suspect the Galloways as the example of cheap cattle kind of evolves into the way cheap cattle often pay out poorly. Certainly the guy will find out if it's a train wreck or not. And other poor, cheap cattle have a decent chance of the same outcome... and the same kind of learning experience. It might be considered a learning experience to buy better cows and paying more to see what happens too. Not many people can buy two ways and manage those choices as separate herds to see what the difference in outcome would be.

I kind of ran some numbers in my head and if I'm buying cows culled for age I might be looking at 1300 pound cows in decent condition instead of 1100 hundred pound cows in poor condition, and the price might be $0.05 difference by the pound. So that's five cents a pound difference and an extra two hundred at the same price as the 1100 pound cow for a cow that would probably raise a better calf. Maybe I'd be buying five cows instead of six for the same money. Would the better calves justify the extra expense? Too many other factors to consider. All kinds of variables. Personally I see buying poor cows as giving myself a handicap. The same bull on poor cows may improve the calves a lot more, but they will never be the calves that the better cows would produce and prices would be sure to reflect that. And in selling them we are talking about a greater difference in the price as well as the difference in weights.

It's all speculation. I think I'd rather invest in good prices for my product than in saving money to learn what I need to do to get better prices for my invested money.

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‘Well, now that I got my money back, planning on paying about 1200 each for any new cows. But again, some of us didn’t have the luxury of choice starting out. I struggled through the pandemic, myself, but paid every debt.

Kids and folks like me need a less capital intensive way to get started.

rocfarm said:

Nope. And he could be right. But ive done nothing for my cheap cows except tubs, cubing them about once a month, and fence mending. Only give blackleg shots to calves. Only preg late. More money and 'better' cows would cost more labor and make a huge loss for me if things went wrong. And statistics, you take a bigger risk if one of your 'fewer' good cows die. Big loss verse cheap cows x more calves type of thing.

I did get lucky on my cheap cows. Had only a 21 day calving window. I got $5450 back from selling 6 out of 14 head of cattle that I paid about $5100 for, though, so I might not be an uninformed buyer;). We'll see how the remaining 8 'cheap' cattle perform. Will post next years results in my other chat. Then folks can decide for themselves.

But His numbers could be better, no doubt.

if my Wagyu thing doesn't work out and my life ever slows down, I think I might just try the Corrientes thing for fun some day.

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People raise beef cows on those same expenses or less all the time. That's not any thing special to one breed.

You are right, you made money on your cows you bought cheap. Was that because of a breed or did you just make a good buy?

I'm not questioning your abilities or game plan. I am questioning if a breed deserves the credit for your success. Imo, you are giving way too much credit to a breed and not enough to yourself as the operator.

rocfarm said:

'Well, now that I got my money back, planning on paying about 1200 each for any new cows. But again, some of us didn't have the luxury of choice starting out. I struggled through the pandemic, myself, but paid every debt.

Kids and folks like me need a less capital intensive way to get started.

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Yeah, glad it worked out for you so far. Sounds like you have a decent handle on it.

Still, just to throw it out there, "And statistics, you take a bigger risk if one of your 'fewer' good cows die. Big loss verse cheap cows", seems like six of one and a dozen of another kind of thinking to me. Bigger risk with more expensive cows is true IF you lose one... but cheaper cows are often the ones that are most likely to have problems with. It isn't necessarily the condition of the cow that is the only factor in determining price.

rocfarm said:

Nope. And he could be right. But ive done nothing for my cheap cows except tubs, cubing them about once a month, and fence mending. Only give blackleg shots to calves. Only preg late. More money and 'better' cows would cost more labor and make a huge loss for me if things went wrong. And statistics, you take a bigger risk if one of your 'fewer' good cows die. Big loss verse cheap cows x more calves type of thing.

I did get lucky on my cheap cows. Had only a 21 day calving window. I got $5450 back from selling 6 out of 14 head of cattle that I paid about $5100 for, though, so I might not be an uninformed buyer;). We'll see how the remaining 8 'cheap' cattle perform. Will post next years results in my other chat. Then folks can decide for themselves.

But His numbers could be better, no doubt.

if my Wagyu thing doesn't work out and my life ever slows down, I think I might just try the Corrientes thing for fun some day.

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Did you even see what I posted the numbers about? I compared sale prices on feeder steers that sold on Superior last week. One group was out of Longhorn - Correinte cross cows bred to Charolais bulls. The other was Angus and black baldie cows bred to Black Angus and Hereford bulls. The steers from the Angus cows out sold the ones from the Longhorn - Correinte cows by over $400.
If you paid $5,100 for 14 head that is beyond cheap. That is $364 a head. You can't buy bred junk that cheap here. A 600 pound worn out Cooreinte roping heifer sells for more than that.

Dave said:

Did you even see what I posted the numbers about? I compared sale prices on feeder steers that sold on Superior last week. One group was out of Longhorn - Correinte cross cows bred to Charolais bulls. The other was Angus and black baldie cows bred to Black Angus and Hereford bulls. The steers from the Angus cows out sold the ones from the Longhorn - Correinte cows by over $400.
If you paid $5,100 for 14 head that is beyond cheap. That is $364 a head. You can't buy bred junk that cheap here. A 600 pound worn out Cooreinte roping heifer sells for more than that.

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7 of the 14 were born on the farm, so that should clear things up.

But not lying. That's what I paid. Had calves mixed in and it was during that drought in Texas two years ago when people were lined up at the sale barns to sell. I had rested my place for 6 months and had stockpile. Used tubs to get them to the fall rains then had them on stockpile through winter. Still haven't fed hay this winter to the remaining 8, but we'll see if it hurts the breed back. Got lots of Burr clover and winter grass out there, though. And they haven't been hitting the tub. Only 1/4 through the 225 lbs tub I put out first week of November.

Here is proof of half my purchase. Bought the other ones at other locations. My bull was a yearling and $1800. Some of them were calves, obviously. And that $450 cow had a bull calf two months after I bought her. The pics are of her current/ second calf and her first calf, which is now a bull. The 665 lbs cow on that receipt that I paid $600 for fattened up, bred, calved, but lost her calf. But I got $1080 when I sold her, so got the feed/care money back. The BWF cow I still have. Her black heifer calf should give me a new baby this year and she also had another nice heifer calf, was in good condition in November at calving, and should be bred back:).

Would have had a shot at 7 calves this year and 9 next year, all on those cattle, if it hadn't been for the drought last year forcing me to sell those 6 I sold.

rocfarm said:

7 of the 14 were born on the farm, so that should clear things up.

But not lying. That's what I paid. Had calves mixed in and it was during that drought in Texas two years ago when people were lined up at the sale barns to sell. I had rested my place for 6 months and had stockpile. Used tubs to get them to the fall rains then had them on stockpile through winter. Still haven't fed hay this winter to the remaining 8, but we'll see if it hurts the breed back. Got lots of Burr clover and winter grass out there, though. And they haven't been hitting the tub. Only 1/4 through the 225 lbs tub I put out first week of November.

Here is proof of half my purchase. Bought the other ones at other locations. My bull was a yearling and $1800. Some of them were calves, obviously. And that $450 cow had a bull calf two months after I bought her. The pics are of her current/ second calf and her first calf, which is now a bull. The 665 lbs cow on that receipt that I paid $600 for fattened up, bred, calved, but lost her calf. But I got $1080 when I sold her, so got the feed/care money back. The BWF cow I still have. Her black heifer calf should give me a new baby this year and she also had another nice heifer calf, was in good condition in November at calving, and should be bred back:).

Would have had a shot at 7 calves this year and 9 next year, all on those cattle, if it hadn't been for the drought last year forcing me to sell those 6 I sold.

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Those are thin cows bought well due to drought-look pretty beef-type somewhere in the woodpile.
It doesn’t matter what kind or how cheap or expensive a cow is, to expect (or demand) them to survive on nothing is bad management and really poor stewardship. Output depends on at least minimal input of a food source, water, and a place to hide somewhat from the elements. You’re right, it would hurt more for a more expensive cow to die than a cheap one, but you shouldn’t skimp on necessities for either.
I think part of your profit on your cows is that you bought low and added value, then sold high. Dave’s business model depends on using resources available but he still picks as good of animals as possible to do it with, and despite running wide open BLM land, he does manage them with access to the necessities.
Living things don’t stay that way well without the basics.

Hpacres440p said:

Those are thin cows bought well due to drought-look pretty beef-type somewhere in the woodpile.
It doesn't matter what kind or how cheap or expensive a cow is, to expect (or demand) them to survive on nothing is bad management and really poor stewardship. Output depends on at least minimal input of a food source, water, and a place to hide somewhat from the elements. You're right, it would hurt more for a more expensive cow to die than a cheap one, but you shouldn't skimp on necessities for either.
I think part of your profit on your cows is that you bought low and added value, then sold high. Dave's business model depends on using resources available but he still picks as good of animals as possible to do it with, and despite running wide open BLM land, he does manage them with access to the necessities.
Living things don't stay that way well without the basics.

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Just because one doesn't feed hay doesn't mean the cows don't have what they need. Jumping to conclusions, there. My cows all had a bcs of 5.5 or better when they calved. Current herd is at 40% of my place's stocking rate. We do food plots for deer so they got fresh green stuff at beginning of January. See pick for one of the plots and the January stockpile we turned them out on. Also have my place cross fenced so they are rotated among six different pastures, even during the winter.
Also located in winter grass prairie area, so we have good green during wet winters. The six I sold were in the top range of body condition at the market, and had the better temperament, thus topped the market that day.

They are beef type, though. And i think I got most of them from some homesteaders who had a train wreck. And again, got lucky on that red angus momma. She's crazy, though. Gonna be fun getting her back on the trailer.

rocfarm said:

Just because one doesn't feed hay doesn't mean the cows don't have what they need. Jumping to conclusions, there. My cows all had a bcs of 5.5 or better when they calved. Current herd is at 40% of my place's stocking rate. We do food plots for deer so they got fresh green stuff at beginning of January. See pick for one of the plots and the January stockpile we turned them out on. Also have my place cross fenced so they are rotated among six different pastures, even during the winter.
Also located in winter grass prairie area, so we have good green during wet winters. The six I sold were in the top range of body condition at the market, and had the better temperament, thus topped the market that day.

They are beef type, though. And i think I got most of them from some homesteaders who had a train wreck. And again, got lucky on that red angus momma. She's crazy, though. Gonna be fun getting her back on the trailer.

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I wasn’t implying you weren’t feeding, I was alluding to some of the practices that others talk about. You actually “rescued” yours and put them in a better situation, and profited from their improvement.
I was pointing out that regardless of how tough or inexpensive a certain type of cow seems, without the basics, they will end up feeding buzzards, just like expensive ones put into poor management situations.

Hpacres440p said:

I wasn't implying you weren't feeding, I was alluding to some of the practices that others talk about. You actually "rescued" yours and put them in a better situation, and profited from their improvement.
I was pointing out that regardless of how tough or inexpensive a certain type of cow seems, without the basics, they will end up feeding buzzards, just like expensive ones put into poor management situations.

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Wholeheartedly agree. Learned a bit about how to do this from @MurraysMutts.

Would also point out that this is most likely profitable if you are only trying to run a smaller herd. Would be a pain if you needed 100 head for your operation.

But there are still good deals out there. Saw a guy at OKC West buy a bunch of thin 2 Y/O black angus the auction a few months back for about 800 a piece. Even the auctioneer got excited. Said to the guy, "Breed them to a good Angus and bring me the calves at weaning and they'll pay well. I bet he more than pays for those cows with his first calf crop.

Also, just watched CCI's Best in the West Angus bull sale today on YouTube. You can get a decent Angus bull for $3000 or less right now. That's not bad at all.

The Superior auctions are all pretty high, it seems.

Food plot pic didn't go through. Here it is.

Brute 23 said:

People raise beef cows on those same expenses or less all the time. That's not any thing special to one breed.

You are right, you made money on your cows you bought cheap. Was that because of a breed or did you just make a good buy?

I'm not questioning your abilities or game plan. I am questioning if a breed deserves the credit for your success. Imo, you are giving way too much credit to a breed and not enough to yourself as the operator.

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Well, if you can buy a bunch of beef cows during a drought for 600 a head or Corrientes for 350, I'd say go with the beef. But if the beef are 1000 and the Corrientes 450, I'd say go with the Corrientes.

But yeah, of course work it out on paper, consider the total cost, expected return, profit risk profile of what you can accept, danger level you want to accept, how much time you have to mess with it, and where you want your program to end up. If you are not going for superior genetics, cheap and flexible seems the better road to me.

My record on business is about 60/40, so I do ok. Still learning. I know I 1) Got lucky to buy my place before the pandemic, 2) Got lucky to have a drought happen right when I was building a herd.

Seems a lot of life is about timing.

But I wouldn't wish a drought or pandemic on anyone, either.

And, yes, I like trolling YouTube in my spare time to see what others are doing and also watch videos about cattle. And Google Scholar has some good research on forage that can help you get a handle on what you can expect from the forages on you place. And I was able to download the NRCS soil survey for my county. Even locals don't seem to know about their own soils sometimes, which seems weird to me.

But it appears, at least up to this point, we have a good shot at success on the cattle. Hoping to pay myself back for all funds invested by 2025.

Also saw a news report the other day that says farms and ranches are thriving post-pandemic inflation. Income up by like 30%. Hope it lasts. It's about time. The industrialists have used economic tricks to underpay the American rancher for a good while. Needs to swing the other way for at least 5 to 8 years IMO.

@rocfarm you paid $5100 for 7 head, correct?

Brute 23 said:

@rocfarm you paid $5100 for 7 head, correct?

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Hereford and bra calf for 1400
bull 1800
four head 1950
coriente calf free-

8 head

So actually 5150

had 7 calves on farm

one lost

ended up with 14 head, yeah

why?

rocfarm said:

Hereford and bra calf for 1400
bull 1800
four head 1950
coriente calf free-

8 head

So actually 5150

had 7 calves on farm

one lost

ended up with 14 head, yeah

why?

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It was hard to see what you actually paid for the corriente cattle. You paid just shy of $500 each for the Cor cows of I'm look at it right?

rocfarm said:

Income up by like 30%.

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Income (gross revenue) or profit?

More like $643 per head for all 8 head. Take off the bull and $478 per head. But they aren't reallly 'true' corriente. The Hereford was a pure bred with a Braford calf.

But I added all my expenses up and am at about $11,000 total. That includes $650 for things like Remedy Ultra+ diesel to spray mesquites, $200 for diesel to fix road and clean out tanks, $1350 for water troughs (I laid pex pipe to four different pastures from the well and used expensive hoses and fittings to set them up hoping to make them burst-proof in freezes), gas to and from my place, banding tool, 14 gauge wire, feed and tubs, etc.

If I multiply the 8 I have left by $643 per head, that'd be $5224. Add that to the $5450 (I subtracted my gas and auction fees from my gross sales, that's net income) I got from destocking due to drought, that'd be $10,674 total. So, by that metric, even counting the cattle I still have on the place, I haven't gotten my money back. But the herd I have left is one bull, 3 heifers (one should calve as early as April and at least by June), 3 cows and one steer.

Will sell the steer in July. Will keep females and rotate bulls/buy replacements as needed to get to goal of 9 to 10 calves each year, God wiling.

Brute 23 said:

It was hard to see what you actually paid for the corriente cattle. You paid just shy of $500 each for the Cor cows of I'm look at it right?

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greybeard said:

Income (gross revenue) or profit?

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Income bump, I think. Didn't save the article. But in central texas, land prices went up 57% in two years. That had to help ranch owners a lot. And cattle prices went up about 30% as well.

if prices stay high on cattle, it stands to reason that incomes will be handily up.