Pharo cattle company

farmerjan · Jan 1, 2023

I want a bull with his working clothes on. I often will pick a "rougher looking" bull at sales and son will make a comment... but many times those bulls bring more money.... I want a bull that looks like he will be able to go out there and earn his keep WITHOUT getting hand fed a pile of grain every day. Yes, we feed a little grain to keep them coming into the catch pens and calmer and quieter being around us.... If we call them, they get rewarded with a little grain... also gets the calves learning that when we call, they should come to our voice... and that grain is pretty neat to eat... makes weaning a little easier and putting the steer calves on feed.... they know what the bunk is for, what a bucket means, what us calling them means, and that we are not the bad guys because we are not out there chasing them all over he//s half acre... Calm and easy makes for a better gaining animal.
Now places like @Dave 's out there is a different thing, where they run out all summer... but he still is around them once they are weaned, and the cows that he helps with at the neighbor's place are fed all winter so they know the routine out there.
Same with @gcreekrch and @Silver ... those cows look pretty content and not running for the hills when they go out because the cows know what to expect. Little different style but they do what works for them where they are.
I think our bulls are tamer due to the handling situation... and we have to have bulls that we can load and unload without alot of fuss... and when they are at a few of the places we need to worry about their dispositions... NEVER trust a bull and all that... but don't want one that is always pawing and bellering at a vehicle or a person.... bad enough to worry about cows with new calves out at pastures and their protective nature's .....

rocfarm · Jan 1, 2023

farmerjan said:
I want a bull with his working clothes on. I often will pick a "rougher looking" bull at sales and son will make a comment... but many times those bulls bring more money.... I want a bull that looks like he will be able to go out there and earn his keep WITHOUT getting hand fed a pile of grain every day. Yes, we feed a little grain to keep them coming into the catch pens and calmer and quieter being around us.... If we call them, they get rewarded with a little grain... also gets the calves learning that when we call, they should come to our voice... and that grain is pretty neat to eat... makes weaning a little easier and putting the steer calves on feed.... they know what the bunk is for, what a bucket means, what us calling them means, and that we are not the bad guys because we are not out there chasing them all over he//s half acre... Calm and easy makes for a better gaining animal.
Now places like @Dave 's out there is a different thing, where they run out all summer... but he still is around them once they are weaned, and the cows that he helps with at the neighbor's place are fed all winter so they know the routine out there.
Same with @gcreekrch and @Silver ... those cows look pretty content and not running for the hills when they go out because the cows know what to expect. Little different style but they do what works for them where they are.
I think our bulls are tamer due to the handling situation... and we have to have bulls that we can load and unload without alot of fuss... and when they are at a few of the places we need to worry about their dispositions... NEVER trust a bull and all that... but don't want one that is always pawing and bellering at a vehicle or a person.... bad enough to worry about cows with new calves out at pastures and their protective nature's .....

That’s why we cube. Started to get onto my hunters for over-feeding cubes every day they hunt, but then figured if it was calming the cattle I’d just pay the extra 150$ over the course of the year. They do come running when they see our truck and a couple of my cows have started trying to push the bucket out of people‘s hands. Maybe getting too gentle

.

farmerjan · Jan 1, 2023

rocfarm said:
That’s why we cube. Started to get onto my hunters for over-feeding cubes every day they hunt, but then figured if it was calming the cattle I’d just pay the extra 150$ over the course of the year. They do come running when they see our truck and a couple of my cows have started trying to push the bucket out of people‘s hands. Maybe getting too gentle.

I have a loud voice... and with the ankle and both knees replaced, balance is a little trickier... I tell them a very loud NO when they start crowding me... and if they get too pushy with the buckets they get bopped HARD on the nose. They pretty much all know I am the BOSS... and I share well with the nice ones and don't tolerate the bullies.... I have split a bucket or two on their heads of a couple that are just too pushy... and I also try to feed some in the pen with the gate closed before hand so that they can't totally run me over...

Nesikep · Jan 1, 2023

rocfarm said:
Good comment. It does seem hard to cut through all the adverts and possibly played with numbers to really see what would work for one’s own operation. One reason I went cheap. Afraid the more expensive genetics won’t lead to higher profits, just more work.

But it’s hard to not want a looker of a bull with good EPDs. Maybe some day:)…

I got my last one from a small kinda local breeder, Has decent EPD's, I was especially looking for lower BW and his calves do have shorter gestation which helps. I paid $3500 CAD (2700 USD)
The day I got him, they feed a little grain but from calving to weaning they're on momma's milk alone and they have some pretty good weights

He's a pretty relaxed boy, likes attention, doesn't get worked up

This summer, I figure around 1800-2000 lbs,. not very tall but thick

I kept a PB son of his, he's looking pretty good

Here's my first PB Gelbvieh bull, really liked him

One of his sons I kept and he's got a few really good daughters in the herd now

6 month old son of the one above, cow is from the first PB bull

rocfarm · Jan 1, 2023

Nesikep said:
I got my last one from a small kinda local breeder, Has decent EPD's, I was especially looking for lower BW and his calves do have shorter gestation which helps. I paid $3500 CAD (2700 USD)
The day I got him, they feed a little grain but from calving to weaning they're on momma's milk alone and they have some pretty good weights
View attachment 24439

He's a pretty relaxed boy, likes attention, doesn't get worked up
View attachment 24440

This summer, I figure around 1800-2000 lbs,. not very tall but thick
View attachment 24441

I kept a PB son of his, he's looking pretty good
View attachment 24442

Here's my first PB Gelbvieh bull, really liked him
View attachment 24445

One of his sons I kept and he's got a few really good daughters in the herd now
View attachment 24443

6 month old son of the one above, cow is from the first PB bull
View attachment 24444
View attachment 24446

Yup. I’m officially jealous. Maybe a bit more motivated as well. Nice looking bull and herd. I’ll work towards something like that, as long as the price is right. Bull prices have really bumped down here lately, though. Might be stuck with culls or seconds for a while.

farmerjan · Jan 1, 2023

NICE CATTLE, and it is obvious that they are well taken care of and loved....

How are you doing? Did you get the cattle sorted and moved and all like you had talked about? Glad to see you posting more again.

Nesikep · Jan 1, 2023

farmerjan said:
NICE CATTLE, and it is obvious that they are well taken care of and loved....

How are you doing? Did you get the cattle sorted and moved and all like you had talked about? Glad to see you posting more again.

11 cows stay here, I have one more load to go but the roads have been glare ice around here so holding off on that for a bit.. I just get sucked into these conversations hehehe

rocfarm said:
Yup. I’m officially jealous. Maybe a bit more motivated as well. Nice looking bull and herd. I’ll work towards something like that, as long as the price is right. Bull prices have really bumped down here lately, though. Might be stuck with culls or seconds for a while.

That was Hector, really miss that old lug.. he did not play well with other bulls, he was going to be boss no matter what, but he was good with me and the cows..
Here's a really pretty daughter of his, probably one of my nicest little cows all around now, she's always had a great look to her

This was with her first calf.. Lots of milk for him there and a great udder

Her older maternal sister from a 3/4 brother bull makes some good calves as well

Momma isn't the prettiest cow but dang she makes the nice calves.. this one was a bit of a skittish girl but looks real nice

Nearly kept this guy as a bull, but her full sister's calf was just a wee bit better and only wanted to keep one

I won't accept any misbehaving from my boys.. they better just want their neck scritches and be nice

Nesikep · Jan 1, 2023

On my first PB bull, I have NO IDEA what his EPDs were, got him in an emergency to replace a bad bull and he worked out just great, but never was able to find out if he was registered or not, or where he came from
Here's the link to the EPDs of the new one, I wanted moderate cow size and calving ease, with a little less importance on weaning weight so I think this fit the bill fairly well, stayability and PG30 seems good so should make good momma cows

https://cdgv.digitalbeef.com/module...l&file=_animal&animal_registration=CDGV169883

rocfarm · Jan 1, 2023

Nesikep said:
On my first PB bull, I have NO IDEA what his EPDs were, got him in an emergency to replace a bad bull and he worked out just great, but never was able to find out if he was registered or not, or where he came from
Here's the link to the EPDs of the new one, I wanted moderate cow size and calving ease, with a little less importance on weaning weight so I think this fit the bill fairly well, stayability and PG30 seems good so should make good momma cows

https://cdgv.digitalbeef.com/module...l&file=_animal&animal_registration=CDGV169883

Are Gelbvieh and Brown Swiss pretty much the same?

My new bull has ‘a touch of brown Swiss’ mixed in with his red angus blood according to his previous owner. Started to be concerned about the dairy influence until I saw the Gelbvieh ads in Texas. Seems some folks will use them. I thought I was getting mostly angus, though.

But if my calves look similar to yours, I’d be tickled.

I thought some of them in the background looked to have shorthorn influence. That right?

Glad I’m not the only one to have to purchase an emergency bull. Wasn’t a good feeling. Hope to not have to do it again.

dave_shelby · Jan 1, 2023

Beautiful Nesi. You know were all secretly hoping for a shot at your herd. But seriously I am happy that you are able to keep some of the herd and hope you are able to get things sorted out.

Ebenezer · Jan 1, 2023

Ned Jr. said:
Could you elaborate on this? {Dr. Bonsma said that if the calf crop for a bull had bull calves smaller than heifer calves, on average, the lack of environmental fit via gestational programming was the issue. Yet the world keeps chasing the low BW bulls. So I think it is thinking in a rut.}

The man was a genius but he based his knowledge on observations and measurements. He spent daily time with a bunch of cattle in SA and later lectured and traveled as a professor. There are some who follow him only for the observed issues or a few of the observed issues. They ignore the fact that he used weights and data. There are a few charlatans in the US who did or do get paid to say they are Bonsma experts. They always select small framed cattle as prefect. The problem is that Bonsma did not want small framed cattle and his preference was a real mainstream sized animal and cows were 1300+/-. Always a crook to twist something and try to make a profit.

If you can retain all that he wrote, you are much better than I am. I try but it is pretty overwhelming. But his work has helped me with a lot of things that many ignore such as easy ways to know environmental fit (above), judging for butterfat in a cow, understanding of perceived extra length in an animal and the odd things like what to do when an AI sire sires all dead calves in heifers.

Dave · Jan 1, 2023

rocfarm said:
This model was my original plan before I had a 3-month-old-unfilled auction order for a young bull that fit the bill this last month. At that point it became no calves on the ground next October or buy a bull off of a neighbor at a premium to get that calf crop. Not much of a choice for me, and, after a few hard knocks in life, I do know enough that if I can’t deal from a position of strength it’s usually best to withdraw and wait (this is why I bought my first herd during a drought:)-hoping the future market bump will help provide forgiveness for the inevitable mistakes I made).

If you haven't realized it yet. An order to the sale barn for one bull isn't going to be much of a priority for them. How well do they know you? They can be extremely busy on sale day. One bull? That is nickles and dimes for them on a day they are making dollars. Find an order buyer (not a trader) who is trust worthy. Or even better a local older cattleman who goes to the sale regularly. Offer to pay him to pick up a bull for you.
For a lot of years I bought real good unregistered bulls that threw great calves for way less than $2000. I could still get them today but they are a long ways from where I now live. The big name breeders selling on Superior are fun to watch but they are not reality for the vast majority of cattlemen. Keep your ears open and you will find sources of reasonably priced bulls in your area.

dave_shelby · Jan 1, 2023

Id like to get Bonsma's book, I read up on him and am impressed by his observations.

I see a quote of his extracted from his lectures - unsure of its accuracy - where he claims that cattle size should correlate with fertility and pH. The reasoning behind that is not provided. I also noted that he categorized the environment into for classes and had animal phenotypes for each. It seems Africa has the largest mammals so I don't get that. American west has the bison but also the antelope. I'd guess the predation defense strategies of each - flocking vs fleeing - plays a massive role in selection of phenotype.

Bob Kinford · Jan 1, 2023

"Your time is worth something. More cows = more labor."
Sorry, but after spending the last 50 years working on everything from a 100 head registered ranch, to 10,000 head of cows (and retaining yearlings,) labor is more relevant to management style than numbers of cattle.

Bob Kinford · Jan 1, 2023

dave_shelby said:
Id like to get Bonsma's book, I read up on him and am impressed by his observations.

I see a quote of his extracted from his lectures - unsure of its accuracy - where he claims that cattle size should correlate with fertility and pH. The reasoning behind that is not provided. I also noted that he categorized the environment into for classes and had animal phenotypes for each. It seems Africa has the largest mammals so I don't get that. American west has the bison but also the antelope. I'd guess the predation defense strategies of each - flocking vs fleeing - plays a massive role in selection of phenotype.

Predation strategies have nothing to do with phenotypes nor grazing patterns/migrations. Grazing behavior (and herd migration) is dependent on feed quality and density, not predator pressure. Recently I was taking care of 800 sheep, sent to me from two different ranches. At first they grazed as two flocks. With a little work they started grazing as one. Then dogs from a nearby sub division started killing four and five ewes a night. Rather than bunch up (as holistic grazers claim they would do) they broke up into four flocks. Killed the dogs responsible, and within a week they were running as a single flock.

Nesikep · Jan 1, 2023

rocfarm said:
Are Gelbvieh and Brown Swiss pretty much the same?

My new bull has ‘a touch of brown Swiss’ mixed in with his red angus blood according to his previous owner. Started to be concerned about the dairy influence until I saw the Gelbvieh ads in Texas. Seems some folks will use them. I thought I was getting mostly angus, though.

But if my calves look similar to yours, I’d be tickled.

I thought some of them in the background looked to have shorthorn influence. That right?

Glad I’m not the only one to have to purchase an emergency bull. Wasn’t a good feeling. Hope to not have to do it again.

They're really different, Gelbvieh would be closer to simmental and Tarantaise, they were both triple purpose breeds and got bred for beef, while the brown swiss was more of a dairy oriented breed and recently was bred exclusively for dairy.
Yup, most of the calves are 1/8 to 1/4 Shorthorn, the thinner momma (red tag) posted is 1/2 Gelbvieh, 1/4 Shorthorn, 1/8th Salers and 1/8th Hereford to the extent of my knowledge
Here's her grandma (the Salers Hereford).. Those weren't twins, that was granddaughter (darker color) stealing, I still have both of them at 12 years old, grandma got to have 16 calves. The bull rubbing on me is the son of the lighter calf, the other is the sister to the red tag cow above.. Grandma was a great cow, didnt' make the biggest calves but was reliable and made thick calves, had a great udder and feet (the cow udder posted way earlier is her oldest daughter and momma of the red tag thin cow and dark heifer here.. I have a Limo sired daughter as well I posted in another thread)

Ebenezer · Jan 1, 2023

dave_shelby said:
Id like to get Bonsma's book, I read up on him and am impressed by his observations.

I see a quote of his extracted from his lectures - unsure of its accuracy - where he claims that cattle size should correlate with fertility and pH. The reasoning behind that is not provided. I also noted that he categorized the environment into for classes and had animal phenotypes for each. It seems Africa has the largest mammals so I don't get that. American west has the bison but also the antelope. I'd guess the predation defense strategies of each - flocking vs fleeing - plays a massive role in selection of phenotype.

There is a Bonsma FB group. Join and there are files of books or chapters that can be downloaded. Quite a $ savings. pH is a deal of better soil and better forage allow more growth or more size. He did divide climates and never advocated that any one animal could fit anywhere in the world. His goal was the production of red meat and today many use his name to raise what they want to promote including only small framed cattle.

Rmc · Jan 1, 2023

One thing that has always made me wonder. In the south the mainstream breeders ect have accepted that adding ear to cattle to make them more feed efficient and heat tolerant.
Yet are so resistant to doing anything similar in the cold north to take advantage of breeds to be more efficient and cold tolerant in the north.

Son of Butch · Jan 1, 2023

Rmc said:
Yet are so resistant to doing anything similar in the cold north to take advantage of breeds to be more efficient and cold tolerant in the north.

Which cold tolerant breeds are you referring to?

Rmc · Jan 1, 2023

Son of Butch said:
Which cold tolerant breeds are you referring to?

Scottish highland come to mind

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