Pharo cattle company
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Current research and testing show that size and weight are poor indicators of an efficient productive cow. It has also been proven that by selecting for efficiency you can reduce maintenance costs by 20-25% and maintain frame size and weight. Much of the research many rely on is based on old technology and not the newest. Many like Kit claim you can increase stocking numbers by 25%. I have seen several try it and in 5 years or a drought hits and they have nothing but bare ground and thin cows. The most increase I ever saw work long term was a 10% increase in stocking rate. Our forages require a high volume cow. Our market desires more frame. A 1,400 lb 6.0 frame cow returns us the most return per acre. Many studies never use the reduced price the smaller framed cattle receive.
I strongly disagree with you. We run 100 head but know many with under 40 head. Our experience and that of most in this area is the cull % of home raised vs purchased is significantly lower. With a home raised heifer you know the sire and dam. The idea that a cow can only be terminal or maternal is a fallacy.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Bingo, a few back I did some figuring on the subject of larger cows vs what ever percent more smaller cows. I allowed for a dock of the smaller cow’s smaller framed calves which they will get, and if I remember right my figures came out about even with a slight advantage to the bigger cattle.
People don’t factor in during promoting the small framed cattle that they will be docked.
We have friends who had around 200 of those small low line type Angus cows and they used the term bloodbath in describing the sale of their calves.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
How would you select "efficient" commercial cows using "modern technology".?
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Stocker Steve
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That is the fact if selling at a barn in this area. You take a beating on the smaller framed cattle. I like how the PB promoting call them moderate framed maternal cattle. The barn managers and buyers call them small framed low growth cattle.
Nesikep
Well-known member
I found ways to do it with no technology.. I had one cow and she was the last to come to the feed bunk, first to leave and go lay down to chew cud, raised great calves
One thing I noticed with her is she chewed every mouthful of cud a lot longer than the others, usually they seemed to chew it about 40 times, she'd chew it 60-65 times, so right there she's mechanically breaking down the food into finer pieces.. You can also look at the manure and see how much rough stuff is in it. It seems to be a trait passed down to her daughters too
I'm sure you could get scientific with just that analysis too
Nesikep
Well-known member
after 100 years of linebreeding for consistency, I'd expect the rest of them to be similar if they paid any attention to udders.. After just 30 years I have ZERO cows with udders like that, and trust me we sure had a lot to begin with.
This is the udder I go for.. And this is also the cow I mentioned above that just chews cud a lot more.. Little baby peeking there is now a 12 year old and a really nice cow
On cow size, I went from a significant number of 16-1800 lb cows that ATE LIKE HECK to mostly 1400 lb cows with no change in weaning weights and the cows ate considerably less, I don't want to go much below a 1200 lb mature weight though, and I'm also not chasing weaning weights over about 650 lbs.. I found the the vast majority of years you get about an extra $20-30 for 100 lbs of extra weight when you go over 600 lbs, and the cow that makes that much bigger calf is going to be eating that much more for sure.. If you have BLM, rented pasture by the head, or whatever where the forage quantity eaten by each animal isn't calculated, well, that would change how you select as well, but I found the high 5wt - low 6wt calves sell well here
dave_shelby
Well-known member
I know of only one person using PCC bulls, and they were Tarentaise. Small but they did very well with heat and flies.
I see OCC has been brought up a few times. I've raised primarily sim-angus and the primary challenge is fescue and heat tolerance. The worst have been culled and I shifted most to fall calving. I bought a few red Angus and I am impressed with them in that respect. So I am interested in going that direction, ignoring the premium for black. Anyways I found this OCC bull, is this typical?
I see OCC has been brought up a few times. I've raised primarily sim-angus and the primary challenge is fescue and heat tolerance. The worst have been culled and I shifted most to fall calving. I bought a few red Angus and I am impressed with them in that respect. So I am interested in going that direction, ignoring the premium for black. Anyways I found this OCC bull, is this typical?
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Ebenezer
Well-known member
You are out of your mind.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Let's say that you have started a step towards figuring profit. Take your many pounds of small frame calves and price them at 65 cents or less per pound. Take the fewer bigger (normal) calves and price them at $2 a pound. Who wins? The small bull seller wins the first question and the desired calf size seller wins the second round. So the profit is to either to market small bulls to producers or to sell calves desired by buyers. There is no middle ground. To use your words, "It's indisputable".
I may have been born at night but it wasn't last night.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Yep, the only link of the chain that cares anything at all about maternal and or efficient cows is the cow/calf producer. Once those calves go to market it better be what the market wants or it’s docked and those small ones are docked heavily.
It’s best to try and find a balance between cows that work for your outfit, and calves that the market wants.
Those small framed cattle ain’t it.
Matter of fact you have to watch some of the popular mainstream Angus and Hereford cattle or you can get too small frame cattle.
Very good post and a reflection of what we have seen and experienced. It is a balancing act and even more so today. We have already lost frame size and weight due to the current popular AI genetics. We are currently trying to get our cows back in that 1,400-1,500 lb range. And the majority in the 5.75-6.25 frame range. Trying to find a polled Hereford a 6.0 frame or above is hard. Again no one size, type or breed works best for everyone
dave_shelby
Well-known member
I am intrigued by the preference in cow size. I believe that most here prefer a 1200 pound cow, some a bit larger.
One of our neighbors are three odd brothers who all never married and are in their 80s, raising cattle on 1500 acres most of it rougher ground. Their place looks wooly, little if ever fertilizers, rickety old fence. They do make some poor quality hay with ancient equipment. No vaccines. Closed herd. They are low input. I would reckon their cattle have settled in to about 1000 pounds. While most folks here despise them they are making money.
I had a few of those 6+ frame Herefords, the last one pounded out at 1800.
One of our neighbors are three odd brothers who all never married and are in their 80s, raising cattle on 1500 acres most of it rougher ground. Their place looks wooly, little if ever fertilizers, rickety old fence. They do make some poor quality hay with ancient equipment. No vaccines. Closed herd. They are low input. I would reckon their cattle have settled in to about 1000 pounds. While most folks here despise them they are making money.
I had a few of those 6+ frame Herefords, the last one pounded out at 1800.
Ky hills
Well-known member
That’s where I’m at, it seems like that 1400 - 1500 range at their heaviest point is where most of our cows will fall and seems to be the best for us. I’d love to make it work with 1200 lb but the ones that do are the exception.
I’ve say it often, and people think I’m crazy, but I think heavy reliance on EPD’s and AI are the worst things that have happened to the cow calf producers.
They are both useful tools, but when used as sole means of selection it’s disastrous. EPD’s are meant for a comparison, yet you can’t do that on a level plain because too many factors come into play between outfits management practices and locations,
as well as constantly recalibrating them.
Then AI is great in certain situations, but now it’s to the point we don’t have cattle breeding programs anymore, it’s just cattle multipliers. Almost every registered outfit has a similar sampling of the latest and greatest bulls of the month. Whether they fit what is truly needed or not, oh well, it’s just marketing from the Semen companies, and name recognized prefix outfits, in the same category of the marketing of Pharo, Ohlde, or any other.
I’ve had good quality AI sired black and BWF calves by the contemporary Angus bulls at the times and been just as disappointed at sale time as when I had calves by walking herd bulls. That extra growth and premium promised from those bulls is kinda elusive. The big thing is they have moderated till they are no longer moderate and it’s harder to add the frame using even outliers within the breeds as they tend to skew back towards the center.
There are a few more AI options with Angus, the Sydgen cattle seem to have some decent frame. I’m going to date my AI bull knowledge, the only frame 7 Angus bull I know of is Sydgen CC&7. I think I they have a few 6 frames too though.
The breed direction of Herefords just make me shake my head in disbelief.
They could have made serious inroads back into the market share, with the missteps of Angus direction, but they just seem to be promoting show cattle that are basically squatty little toads.
SHF Ribeye is the only frame 7 Hereford I know of, and like the Angus thats going back several years ago.
Around here anything under 5.5 frame is as low as you want to go definitely nothing under 5 or it’s gonna be docked.
Nesikep
Well-known member
He looks like a yearling.. pictured behind a post doesn't do him any favors, but he seems to have a really big head for the size of the rest of him.
I totally disagree.
alacowman1
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doesn’t look typical..especially for an OCC
Stocker Steve
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If I wanted to make money with a grade herd of efficient 1300# BA cows, I would also own some terminal herd sires to make feedlot calves. Here - - that would mean big black growthy Simi or Limi bulls. I would not use grass fed English bulls on them to make feedlot cattle, because I have profit goals.
If I needed to continue to produce bred heifers, I would sort off and sync some top females for AI. I would not use terminal bulls to produce replacements, because I have profit goals.
I am continually amazed on how many posters here, who are not able to share any measurable goals, slam various breeds and breeders. We need to do better.
One of my goals is to clear U$S 100 per pasture acre in the upper mid-west. Do you have any tips towards exceeding this goal?
If I needed to continue to produce bred heifers, I would sort off and sync some top females for AI. I would not use terminal bulls to produce replacements, because I have profit goals.
I am continually amazed on how many posters here, who are not able to share any measurable goals, slam various breeds and breeders. We need to do better.
One of my goals is to clear U$S 100 per pasture acre in the upper mid-west. Do you have any tips towards exceeding this goal?
