540 vs. 1000 rpm rotary cutters

Neighbor and I was talking yesterday and he has a 1000 rpm batwing. He was asking me what the advantages of it was over 540 rpm cutters, I have no idea other than maybe the blades spin faster and do a smoother cut but I guess that depends on how the gearboxes at geared. So teach us something today?

I think the pto shaft for 1000 rpm has more splines than the one for 540. :lol2:

This was discussed a few months back, and the results were inconclusive as I recall.

Personably, I fail to see any advantages at all--it's just a matter of different gearing. :tiphat:

All I have heard is that the 540 supposidly has less wear and tear on the tractor.

the 10000 pto turns equipment alot faster.making 1000 turns pre min.where as the 540 pto turns slower.making 540 turns pre min.some say the 540 reduces the strain on the gearboxs.

bigbull338":1ru75wft said:

the 10000 pto turns equipment alot faster.making 1000 turns pre min.where as the 540 pto turns slower.making 540 turns pre min.some say the 540 reduces the strain on the gearboxs.

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Saves on fuel also. Engine does not work as hard.

My understanding, and I could be totally wrong, is that a shaft turning at 1000 rpm will deliver more torque than the same sized shaft turning at 540 rpm. Therefore it increases the amount of hp to the equipment without increasing the need for a larger shaft.

bigbull338":3stsahiw said:

the 10000 pto turns equipment alot faster.making 1000 turns pre min.where as the 540 pto turns slower.making 540 turns pre min.some say the 540 reduces the strain on the gearboxs.

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The only time equipment will turn faster using the 1000 rpm output shaft on the tractor is when it is hooked up to equipment designed to be spun at 540 rpm. Most of todays high horsepower tractors do not even come with 540 rpm output shafts because the 540 equipment could not handle the torque.

There is no difference in the performance but the 540 market for 15' and smaller flex-wing cutters is 10 times the size of a 1000 RPM cutter market. A used 1000 RPM cutter will be worth 50-60% of the same condition 540 unit.

The old 6 spline 1-3/8, 540 rpm, pto is only good for handling about 80 hp, the newer 21 spline, !-3/8 shaft will handle about 200 hp at the pto. If your tractor puts out more hp than that, it should have a catogory 4 hitch and pto with a 1-3/4 20 spline shaft.

Went by the Deere dealer this morning and asked about advantages/disadvantages of 540 or 1000. He said it's a toss-up--just depends on personal taste.

They sell no equipment around here that uses 1000. Up in the midwest there's a lot of 1000 rpm equipment sold. Generally 1000 is used with very high hp tractors, dealing with very large equipment.

But it really comes down to whichever the guy with the money prefers. :tiphat:

Neighbor is trading tractors and has a 1000 rpm cutter he uses and the dealers are telling him he can use it on a 540 tractor with an adapter. They tell him he will not notice a difference in performance of the cutter. I have no experience with 1000 rpm equipment and had no idea what to tell him.

tom4018":29aaarnr said:

Neighbor is trading tractors and has a 1000 rpm cutter he uses and the dealers are telling him he can use it on a 540 tractor with an adapter. They tell him he will not notice a difference in performance of the cutter. I have no experience with 1000 rpm equipment and had no idea what to tell him.

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Tell him to price the adapter before making any decisions. This will be a gear box and expensive. I know tractors with 1000 rpms used are much less than a 540 pto. To get the 540 the adapter is expensive.

tom4018":1rgxtgsd said:

Neighbor is trading tractors and has a 1000 rpm cutter he uses and the dealers are telling him he can use it on a 540 tractor with an adapter. They tell him he will not notice a difference in performance of the cutter. I have no experience with 1000 rpm equipment and had no idea what to tell him.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did a little research on a John Deere 1517 shredder. They made the model available for a 540 and 1000 rpm pto operation. The diagrams are for the center gear box.

1000 rpm gearbox

View attachment 1
You have a 20 tooth gear turning a 24 tooth gear at 1000 rpm. Center blade shaft turns at 818 rpm for a blade tip speed of 175 mph.

540 rpm gearbox


You have a 22 tooth gear turning a 15 tooth gear at 540 rpm. Center blade shaft turns at 792 rpm for a blade tip speed of 170 mph.

If you just use an adapter to convert the 1000 rpm shaft to 540 without changing gears in the gearbox, if my calculations are correct, you are going to cut center shaft revs to 442 rpm and 94.5 mph.

tom4018":3u3bwlce said:

Neighbor is trading tractors and has a 1000 rpm cutter he uses and the dealers are telling him he can use it on a 540 tractor with an adapter.

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Only if the adapter he's using is a gearbox adapter, versus just a simple adapter shaft, otherwise he'll (approximately) halve the speed of the mower.

On the 540 vs 1000 RPM front, as a general rule of thumb, you'll save fuel using any equipment thats 1000 RPM. You'll also have better "grunt" resistance when the going gets hard. Lets use the example of the rotary cutters in the exploded gearbox diagrams.

You'll notice that you're moving from a 20 tooth sprocket to a 24 tooth sprocket on the 1000 RPM mower. In effect you're gearing down, or multiplying torque to the cutter. So you may have 100 lbft input, but output out of the gearbox is going to be a little higher, minus any parasitic loss in the gearbox. Its like using a low gear on your pickup truck to start out from a stop.

On the 540 RPM mower, you're moving from a 22 tooth gear to a 15 tooth gear, or "gearing up". In effect you're reducing the input power down by a factor of the gearing. So at 100 lbft input, you're going to have somewhat less on the output side of the gearbox. Imagine using OD gear on your truck to start out from a stop. You're also going to have more parasitic loss due to heat build up in the gearbox.

So long story short: 1000 RPM equipment is ALWAYS better than 540 RPM. This is why equipment manufacturers are slowly but surely phasing out 540 RPM equipment. In a few decades, once the older 540 RPM equipped tractors are gone from the used market, you won't see 540 RPM equipment for sale anymore.

For anyone who doesn't buy into my drivel above, look up "mechanical advantage" in your encyclopedia. You'll get a better description of what I've tried to communicate above.

Rod

I agree with your drivel about the cutter gearing..........

But you have to realize that the same thing (but opposite) is going on with the tractor gearing.

Soooo, it's a wash I'd say.

There's no reason that one would be more or less efficient than the other.

oops

DiamondSCattleCo":15eil434 said:

Jim62":15eil434 said:

But you have to realize that the same thing (but opposite) is going on with the tractor gearing.

Soooo, it's a wash I'd say.

There's no reason that one would be more or less efficient than the other.

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You're gearing down from engine RPM to the PTO RPM. Its been quite a few years since tractors had redlines of less than 1000 RPM. ;-) And of course it will depend on the tractor, but many newer under 100 HP tractors have fluid drive PTOs, which negates any torque multiplication moving from engine RPM down to PTO RPM.

Besides, tractor output is measured at the PTO, which is where the equipment attaches to and the torque multiplication effect takes place.

Take our mower example again: It turns at approximately 880 RPM. Lets take tractor rated RPM at 2000 RPM. Gear it down to 540 RPM, then back up to 880 RPM. While we're multiplying torque in the drop from 2000 RPM too 540 RPM, how much parasitic loss are we incurring? Quite a bit, especially on gearing up since we've lost our mechanical advantage.

Take the same tractor, gear down from 2000 engine RPMs to 1000 RPMs at the PTO down to 880 on the rotary cutter. We're gearing down each time so we maintain mechanical advantage and less parasitic loss.

The only time 540 RPM equipment and 1000 RPM equipment is equal is when the final drive speed of the equipment is less than 540 RPM. There are very few pieces of equipment out there that turn lower than 540 RPM.

Bear in mind alot of these torque mulitplication effects that I talk about are very much minimized in the real world when parasitic losses are incurred at every point. But they are real. Run a 1000 RPM haybine and a 540 RPM haybine, and you'll see what I mean.

Rod

You win ! It's more than I can cope with. :tiphat:

Not to hijack the thread but here is a question:

We are in the process of purchasing a new New Holland 1411 discbine, 10'4" cut. The cutter will be pulled with a Kubota M125X. New Holland recommends a minimum of 80pto hp. to pull this cutter and the M125X is rated around 100-105hp @ the PTO. The tractor has both a 540 & 1000 pto. Which should we go with and why. The only reason I considered the 540 was due to the easiness of resale if/when that time comes.