"You can RUN - but you CAN'T hide!"

[DOC HARRIS]

There is an interesting article on the front page of CattleToday right now titled "Black Ink -- Truth Can
Be Inconvenient", and it is worth reading. Steve Suther brings a human trait into startling reality in this article, and I would like to add a few additions to it, just for the heck of it!

He mentions a few instances whereby we seemingly "normal" (what's NORMAL?) human beings put the 'blame' for things which "go wrong", or don't pan out the way we would like for them to, on everything except where it belongs - right in our own laps!

As I read this article I said to myself, "This is exactly what being "BARN BLIND" really is - that is - refusing to admit that the problems that Ranchers have with their Beef Cattle Operations belong right in their bathroom mirrors! We are looking at the real cause of most of our own problems! We are BARN BLIND to the facts that our cattle are not what they should be, Genetically and Phenotypically, because we won't admit the TRUTH that OUR cattle could and should be better in many ways. We tell ourselves that they are ". . . really okay, because they are better than neighbor Brown's stuff, which are no darned good to start with, and we refuse to admit that our cattle are ALSO "no darned good" - - - but we don't know where to start to do something about it.

The FIRST place to start is in our heads! We have to admit to ourselves that we need to get rid of our junk, and get better breeding. I watched the Auctions on "Superior Auction" sales this week, and I saw some Feeder Heifers sell for around $1,000 (some more - some less) that were just darned good potential breeding stock for a lot of breeders who post pictures of their cattle on these posts! Not to disparage anyone's cattle (exactly), but a great percentage of what is presented here (with the owner's requesting our opinions of them) could easily be improved upon, and SHOULD be looked at with an UNBIASED eye by the owner's, and stop hiding behind "Barn Blindness" and get rid of un-profitable cattle and realize that something is better out there!

RUN to improve your BU$INE$$, and don't HIDE behind the BARN!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3MR]

Shoot Doc. I know the majority of my cows are no darn good. Drives me crazy. Im upgrading as fast as I can afford.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Shoot Doc. I know the majority of my cows are no darn good. Drives me crazy. Im upgrading as fast as I can afford.

Good for you, 3MR! You just proved that you are NOT Barn Blind! A breeder must know HOW to improve his herd before just 'jumping' in and buying something!

DOC HARRIS

 

[capt]

DOC, I could not agree with you more! One question that I would pose to those out there, yourself included is where and how does price for imnprovement come from and how is it determined. Trying to make that question a little clearer is something I have struggled with for awhile. FOR EXAMPLE, in my area whether commercial breeders own a 1000 cows or ten, it seems as though nobody wants to pay more than $1500 to $2000 for a bull from a BREEDING PROGRAM, yet will fall all over themselves to pay $4000 for a bull from a MARKETING program. Of course there are exceptions to this occurance, but they do become barn blind when the expensive bull doesn't work out, yet they feel obligated to keep him and continue using him hoping that the next one just might be the one to turn him into a good purchase!! I too have fallen into the trap of buying a good looking bull from a marketing program and found that he just doesn't cut the mustard when it comes down to the nitty gritty. Thank heavens there are droughts to convince a guy that those daughters are just not the kind to own. Sure should happen more often. Anyhow some food for thought and I look forward to some responses to this happenstance.
CAPT

 

[IluvABbeef]

Excellent post, Doc. :tiphat:

 

[3MR]

DOC, I could not agree with you more! One question that I would pose to those out there, yourself included is where and how does price for imnprovement come from and how is it determined. Trying to make that question a little clearer is something I have struggled with for awhile. FOR EXAMPLE, in my area whether commercial breeders own a 1000 cows or ten, it seems as though nobody wants to pay more than $1500 to $2000 for a bull from a BREEDING PROGRAM, yet will fall all over themselves to pay $4000 for a bull from a MARKETING program. Of course there are exceptions to this occurance, but they do become barn blind when the expensive bull doesn't work out, yet they feel obligated to keep him and continue using him hoping that the next one just might be the one to turn him into a good purchase!! I too have fallen into the trap of buying a good looking bull from a marketing program and found that he just doesn't cut the mustard when it comes down to the nitty gritty. Thank heavens there are droughts to convince a guy that those daughters are just not the kind to own. Sure should happen more often. Anyhow some food for thought and I look forward to some responses to this happenstance.
CAPT

Well, I think that spart of his point. You can continue using that 4K bull and getting dismal results or you can cut your losses and move on.

Slightly off topic from his post, but hashed and rehashed on here many times is the fact that you need to know what your buying. You need ot make usre you arent getting sucked into a marketing ploy rather than subscribing to a breeding program.

I personally will never have that problem. I cant afford to. I may not have gotten the best bull money can buy, but at a minimum I will have gotten what I paid for.

I think a little effort and AI can improve any herd regardless of where you start. It just takes time effort, a little cash flow and a realistic approach to what you are doing and can expect.

 

[Brandonm2]

DOC, I could not agree with you more! One question that I would pose to those out there, yourself included is where and how does price for imnprovement come from and how is it determined. Trying to make that question a little clearer is something I have struggled with for awhile. FOR EXAMPLE, in my area whether commercial breeders own a 1000 cows or ten, it seems as though nobody wants to pay more than $1500 to $2000 for a bull from a BREEDING PROGRAM, yet will fall all over themselves to pay $4000 for a bull from a MARKETING program. Of course there are exceptions to this occurance, but they do become barn blind when the expensive bull doesn't work out, yet they feel obligated to keep him and continue using him hoping that the next one just might be the one to turn him into a good purchase!! I too have fallen into the trap of buying a good looking bull from a marketing program and found that he just doesn't cut the mustard when it comes down to the nitty gritty. Thank heavens there are droughts to convince a guy that those daughters are just not the kind to own. Sure should happen more often. Anyhow some food for thought and I look forward to some responses to this happenstance.
CAPT

I think you have to know what you are buying. Those large framed High growth EPD cows LOOK GOOD; but if you can't/won't be sure that they get all the groceries that they need all the time (and for SOME animals that means a 6 pound scoop of high energy concentrate every day for the rest of their lives) then they are not the cattle you need. If it not false marketing to buy a bull who is in the top 10% of every growth and milk EPD for his breed....THAT may not be the bull that YOU need in YOUR herd though.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Good responses to this post!

capt - In any merchandising program, price is determined by several factors - need, desire on the part of the buyer, psychology of both buyer AND seller, and what the market will bear. The buyer must determine for himself where those parameters are, and where he should draw the line - based on his particular circumstances. . . .and as tough as it may sound - sometimes a breeder has to pay a little more for an animal (Bull OR Cow) than he would prefer - but he must understand WHY he is doing so, and be able to explain it to his banker! Don't let an Auctioneer talk you into something you don't want OR need! Carefully read what follows here on this thread.

Brandonm2 - is exactly right concerning your knowing what you are buying - and the ONLY way for that to occur is for every breeder to become educated and aware of WHAT their cattle are - and WHY they ARE what they ARE - their Genotype, their Pedigrees, their Phenotype - in other words, what their background breeding dictates what they will be, look like, act like, what their progeny will be like - because "LIKE BEGETS LIKE!"

The protocols involved in these procedures are: reading, educating yourself concerning EPD's, Physiology (Phenotype), handling your cattle, visiting ranches, attending sales and shows, and looking, looking, looking.

Go to a large Feedlot sometime and ask the manager if you can just walk the alleys and look at the cattle. Open your eyes and OBSERVE what they look like and act like. Take one step toward them, and then take a step away from them. See what they do. Eventually, sooner or later, you will get a feel for the Optimal "Beef Animal!", and when you "get" that feeling - you will know it! It just becomes a part of you - something like "REALLY falling in love! Remember that?? Butterflies in the stomach - hard to breathe - you hear your heart beat in your ears? The moderate sized, easy fleshing, docile, calm-eyed, good uddered, well balanced "Cow" with "harmonious" Functional traits will just reach out and say, "Here I am!"

I imagine that some of you will think that I have slipped my trolley cable - but when it happens to you - you will say - "AH-h -so that's what Doc's talking about! Maybe he isn't squirrely after all!"

DOC HARRIS

 

[East Caney]

Doc, I think you've made some excellent points here. I jumped into the cattle business with 10 mixed cows and a ton of learning to do. See, what I knew is that a cow CAN wean a calf every 12 months. I hadn't spent enough time around them to know that every one won't. I learned.

I knew that cows grazed grass to get their required nutrition. I hadn't spent enough time out there to know what supplements would be required...I just thought surely 2006 won't be like 2005, and I bought.

I bought a group of mixed cows that looked better than the only other place I had gone. I've been studying phenotype every since. I quickly discovered that there is much more out there. And when you shop thoroughly, you just might find it at a bargain price.

You were right when you said "like begets like". In the commercial side, heterosis is a great advantage. However, it shouldn't be used to help poor animals produce average animals. It should help people with better than average animals produce a superior animal. Anything less is leaving money on the table. This if for the person that wants to operate as an efficient business. All businesses aren't built alike. Some are large, some are small...but that has little to do with how efficiently it operates.

I whole heartedly agree with the person who says that balanced trait selection is essential. Selecting for any one trait seems to get a lot of people in trouble in a hurry. I mean, really, what's a high milking dam good for when you don't have a pasture with sufficient forage to be converted to milk? What's a 900 lb weaned calf if the dam won't breed back and produce for you year after year? What's a 1100 lb yearling good for if it's hard-keeping and requires significant supplement and eats away any added profit?

Rarely do animals come along that let you have your cake and eat it too. A heavy weaned calf is great, but the adde profit is gone when you have to call a vet to pull it. The value is further diminished when the cow has trouble breeding back...and it's foolish to propagate those genetics back into your herd. That's just asking to repeat the cycle.

Simple math, food for thought. 70 lb calf gains 2.25/day through weaning, weighs 530 lbs. continues gaining 2.25/day through yearling, weighs 891 lbs. That seems like a very acceptable feeder calf to me. There's nothing extraordinary about those numbers. A good milking dam and good growth on forage will provide that every time.

Long, I know...but my 2 cents.

 

[East Caney]

Oh, and one more thing...

When purchasing good cows, it makes dollars and sense (cents) to use a bull that will improve your best cow and compliment your herd. No profit in taking steps backwards.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Good responses to this post!

capt - In any merchandising program, price is determined by several factors - need, desire on the part of the buyer, psychology of both buyer AND seller, and what the market will bear. The buyer must determine for himself where those parameters are, and where he should draw the line - based on his particular circumstances. . . .and as tough as it may sound - sometimes a breeder has to pay a little more for an animal (Bull OR Cow) than he would prefer - but he must understand WHY he is doing so, and be able to explain it to his banker! Don't let an Auctioneer talk you into something you don't want OR need! Carefully read what follows here on this thread.

Brandonm2 - is exactly right concerning your knowing what you are buying - and the ONLY way for that to occur is for every breeder to become educated and aware of WHAT their cattle are - and WHY they ARE what they ARE - their Genotype, their Pedigrees, their Phenotype - in other words, what their background breeding dictates what they will be, look like, act like, what their progeny will be like - because "LIKE BEGETS LIKE!"

The protocols involved in these procedures are: reading, educating yourself concerning EPD's, Physiology (Phenotype), handling your cattle, visiting ranches, attending sales and shows, and looking, looking, looking.

Go to a large Feedlot sometime and ask the manager if you can just walk the alleys and look at the cattle. Open your eyes and OBSERVE what they look like and act like. Take one step toward them, and then take a step away from them. See what they do. Eventually, sooner or later, you will get a feel for the Optimal "Beef Animal!", and when you "get" that feeling - you will know it! It just becomes a part of you - something like "REALLY falling in love! Remember that?? Butterflies in the stomach - hard to breathe - you hear your heart beat in your ears? The moderate sized, easy fleshing, docile, calm-eyed, good uddered, well balanced "Cow" with "harmonious" Functional traits will just reach out and say, "Here I am!"

I imagine that some of you will think that I have slipped my trolley cable - but when it happens to you - you will say - "AH-h -so that's what Doc's talking about! Maybe he isn't squirrely after all!"

DOC HARRIS

No I don't think you have jumped tracks Doc you are only trying to get the boys and girls to thinking.
Like I have always said its cheaper to maintain a good cow.

 

[mwj]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

 

[Frankie]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

A high percentage of hogs (and genetics) is owned by a few large corporate "farmers". They're mostly raised in barns, managed environments. Most cows are owned by smaller, individual ranchers, producing in a variety of enviroments. To compare hogs to cattle is like comparing apples and oranges.

 

[mwj]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

A high percentage of hogs (and genetics) is owned by a few large corporate "farmers". They're mostly raised in barns, managed environments. Most cows are owned by smaller, individual ranchers, producing in a variety of enviroments. To compare hogs to cattle is like comparing apples and oranges.

Frankie tell me how much genetic material you use other than Angus. If your nieghbor had the best bull that ever walked the face of the earth and was a crossbred ,you would not use him in your breeding program :P Most breeders are interested in promoting breeds not beef production.

 

[Frankie]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

A high percentage of hogs (and genetics) is owned by a few large corporate "farmers". They're mostly raised in barns, managed environments. Most cows are owned by smaller, individual ranchers, producing in a variety of enviroments. To compare hogs to cattle is like comparing apples and oranges.

Frankie tell me how much genetic material you use other than Angus. If your nieghbor had the best bull that ever walked the face of the earth and was a crossbred ,you would not use him in your breeding program :P Most breeders are interested in promoting breeds not beef production.

I use only Angus and when we go back to commercial cattle, we'll use Angus. But personal attacks on me won't change the fact that hogs and their genetics are owned by a few corporate "farmers." Or that they're raised on concrete in climate controlled barns. Or that they're grown on feed, not different grasses in different pastures. Or that cows are owned/raised in varied conditions by thousands of different producers, each with his own standards and markets.

Do you want to disagree about how hogs are raised, or do you just want to bash me, personally.

 

[SEC]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

A high percentage of hogs (and genetics) is owned by a few large corporate "farmers". They're mostly raised in barns, managed environments. Most cows are owned by smaller, individual ranchers, producing in a variety of enviroments. To compare hogs to cattle is like comparing apples and oranges.

Frankie tell me how much genetic material you use other than Angus. If your nieghbor had the best bull that ever walked the face of the earth and was a crossbred ,you would not use him in your breeding program :P Most breeders are interested in promoting breeds not beef production.

There are lots of grey areas regarding your post. What defines the best bull in the world? How would you decide he was the best bull in the world? Ultrasound, Kill Data, Weaning Weight? All depends on your ranch and what your program is.

 

[Ryan]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

Although the hog comparison might not be the best comparison, I understand what you are getting at. Breeders do have loyalties to certain breeds. Sometimes they think they have to use a certain breed no matter what, when they do not realize there are dinks and duds in every breed.

I love this topic. Thank you Doc for starting this thread. There is a tremendous amount of "barn blindness" in the Longhorn industry. People raise a bull out of their favorite cow and keep him around b/c he is a sweetheart and who he is out of. They want to go and buy all these cows b/c they are pretty colored or big horned and then use the neighbors bull that should have been castrated long before it was able to breed anything.

Ryan

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

A high percentage of hogs (and genetics) is owned by a few large corporate "farmers". They're mostly raised in barns, managed environments. Most cows are owned by smaller, individual ranchers, producing in a variety of enviroments. To compare hogs to cattle is like comparing apples and oranges.

Frankie - I think that you are a little confused if you think that the improvements made in hogs and poultry genetics by developing composites is NOT comparable to the same TYPE of cross-breeding programs in beef cattle! Apples and Oranges are different species. Composite breeding will add $75.00 - $100.00 per head to a well-planned and optimally operated Beef Cattle program!

You should do some "open-minded" research, Frankie! . . .With all due respect.

DOC HARRIS

 

[mwj]

Doc I sometimes think that the cause is ''breed blind'' instead of ''barn blind'' :shock: Look at the advances in swine genetics in the last 20 years compared to beef! Hog producers have no loyalty to ''breeds'' there loyalty is to the genetics that will improve there bottom line.

A high percentage of hogs (and genetics) is owned by a few large corporate "farmers". They're mostly raised in barns, managed environments. Most cows are owned by smaller, individual ranchers, producing in a variety of enviroments. To compare hogs to cattle is like comparing apples and oranges.

Frankie - I think that you are a little confused if you think that the improvements made in hogs and poultry genetics by developing composites is NOT comparable to the same TYPE of cross-breeding programs in beef cattle! Apples and Oranges are different species. Composite breeding will add $75.00 - $100.00 per head to a well-planned and optimally operated Beef Cattle program!

You should do some "open-minded" research, Frankie! . . .With all due respect.

DOC HARRIS

Thanks Doc for seeing my point. I used Frankies response because she is very loyal to a single ''breed'' and that is vey comm0n with people in the cattle buisness. Frankie this was not an ''attack on you'' or your ''breed'' of cattle :)
'

 

[dun]

Bash away, pick a breed! But if you're a commercial producer be graatefull that there are single minded seed stock breeders. Without those seed stock breeders here wouldn;t be a gene pool to dip into to provide the heterosis.

dun