Yet another fence question--for Northern and Ca folks

[greybeard]

I have an acquaintance in Maine USA that has asked twice over the last few years for a solution to his posts being "heaved" out of the ground by frost. Since I'm in Texas, with a 2" frost line, I don't have a clue.
Anyone else having this problem up north or in Canada?
Here's his problem:
we have several hundred cedar fence posts ranging from a few inches to over a ft in width in the ground from 2 to 3'. I dug the holes with a post-hole tool and then drop the pointed posts in the holes then pounded them in another 6 to 12" then pack the holes with the dirt I removed, packing it in with my big fence post hammer, about a 50 lb hammer). Plum the post as I did all that.

But then every spring when the frost comes out of the ground I have to re-pound just about all of them. Some come out of the ground quite a bit, sometimes 6 to 12". my frost line up here is 4' deep and I am sure that has something to do with the posts growing up out of the ground.
OK now---anyone have any luck with getting the posts to stay in the ground over the winter?

Any ideas?
I can't do that anymore, the back just doesn't let me even pickup the hammer never mind pound posts every year.

Any ideas on how to easily and cheaply get the posts back down and more importantly, how to keep them there?

 

[skyhightree1]

Grey,
As all of you can tell im no fencing expert but judging from when they say there frost line is 4' deep to me that would tell me they need to go deeper than that so that way it would basically not be pushing up on the bottom of the post. I would try one like that and see what happens. I also have the thought that if they dug down 5 foot ran a bolt through the pole and poured concrete on top to help anchor it in the ground I would tell them to try both ways and see what happens.. :2cents:

 

[snake67]

I have an acquaintance in Maine USA that has asked twice over the last few years for a solution to his posts being "heaved" out of the ground by frost. Since I'm in Texas, with a 2" frost line, I don't have a clue.
Anyone else having this problem up north or in Canada?
Here's his problem:
we have several hundred cedar fence posts ranging from a few inches to over a ft in width in the ground from 2 to 3'. I dug the holes with a post-hole tool and then drop the pointed posts in the holes then pounded them in another 6 to 12" then pack the holes with the dirt I removed, packing it in with my big fence post hammer, about a 50 lb hammer). Plum the post as I did all that.

But then every spring when the frost comes out of the ground I have to re-pound just about all of them. Some come out of the ground quite a bit, sometimes 6 to 12". my frost line up here is 4' deep and I am sure that has something to do with the posts growing up out of the ground.
OK now---anyone have any luck with getting the posts to stay in the ground over the winter?

Any ideas?
I can't do that anymore, the back just doesn't let me even pickup the hammer never mind pound posts every year.

Any ideas on how to easily and cheaply get the posts back down and more importantly, how to keep them there?

His ground is wetter than yours and has a deep frost line.

Snow melt and frost will work the ground and the posts.

If he does not get below the frost he will have posts that heave - plain and simple - put them in deeper.

Easy fix - just dig deeper - something all us Canucks learned years ago!

In his area I would not even think of being less than 4 feet and probably better at 5 feet.

If the ground is rocky tell him to use a backhoe rather than an auger.

Bez

 

[Aaron]

Posts will heave considerably in wet ground. High, dry hills will heave posts, but only at a fraction to that of the lowland.

It's fun to watch many people's thoughts on how to prevent it from happening...

The comment I hear, and witness, time and time again, is 'PUT A BIGGER POST IN SO IT WON'T HEAVE!' Something along the lines of a heavier post won't move.

So funny. Not only does a bigger post (wider diameter) heave more, they also weigh more and are liable to fall over fairly easily when they push 2' out of the ground after a few years.

The easiest solution is to use T-posts in low-traffic areas - they don't heave, or if they do, I have never seen it happen in some pretty marshy areas.

In high-traffic areas, I would vote for either more, smaller diameter posts in a given area, or, as Bez's suggests, going below the frost line which is almost impossible here as frost is guaranteed to 4' and possible up to 6' deep.

 

[greybeard]

Thanks Canadians--I will pass this on to him. (He was considering tying a big heavy rock to each post.) I can't laugh at him much--he has a bad back, and has had both a stroke and heart attack in the last few years--he's doing things the best he can by himself)

 

[Richardin52]

I,m in Maine and do not have a problem. Always put the biggest end of the post in the ground so the post gets small as it goes up. I use white cedar because I am cert. Organic. I use a post hole digger and backfill with crushed rock so no soil touches the sides of the post. Posts always seam to rot right where they touch the ground. The rocks stop that and will add years to the post.

Ps My posts are not always down below frost and they still don't lift.

 

[Jogeephus]

Greybeard, I am not questioning any of the advice because I don't know squat about frost lines and such but I would like to suggest one other thing that he may want to consider and this phenomena might aggravate his fence situation. You know when you run a fence between two corners with a dip in the topography between these two corners there is an upward vector force on the wire because the wire isn't running truly horizontal and is trying to make itself work toward horizontal. Most of the time you never notice any problem but I have seen fences lift posts out of the ground just for this reason. If your friend has a situation like this, he might want to first try and sink a post or two in the lowest part of the dip like suggested and if these can be anchored it might help prevent the others from popping up as well. But like I said, I don't know squat about frost but I think this is well worth thinking about.

 

[Aaron]

Greybeard, I am not questioning any of the advice because I don't know squat about frost lines and such but I would like to suggest one other thing that he may want to consider and this phenomena might aggravate his fence situation. You know when you run a fence between two corners with a dip in the topography between these two corners there is an upward vector force on the wire because the wire isn't running truly horizontal and is trying to make itself work toward horizontal. Most of the time you never notice any problem but I have seen fences lift posts out of the ground just for this reason. If your friend has a situation like this, he might want to first try and sink a post or two in the lowest part of the dip like suggested and if these can be anchored it might help prevent the others from popping up as well. But like I said, I don't know squat about frost but I think this is well worth thinking about.

In the case of a dip/ditch, the best thing to do around here would be to either:

- End both sides of the fence on each bank with a end post and h-brace, and cobble up something in the gap. I've seen many things, but the most aesthetic-looking design was two posts on the edge of each bank with a post in bottom and 2x8 treated boards miter-cut to form a perfect V pattern of rails.

- Continue the fence through the gap, without drawing the wires down. Put in one long post half way down the bank on each side and tack horizontal poles/rails to them to close the gap, resting the poles on either sides of the bank/ground. Tack the wires to the correct height of the upright poles.

 

[Kingfisher]

this phenomena might aggravate his fence situation. You know when you run a fence between two corners with a dip in the topography between these two corners there is an upward vector force on the wire because the wire isn't running truly horizontal and is trying to make itself work toward horizontal. Most of the time you never notice any problem but I have seen fences lift posts out of the ground just for this reason. If your friend has a situation like this, he might want to first try and sink a post or two in the lowest part of the dip like suggested and if these can be anchored it might help prevent the others from popping up as well. But like I said, I don't know squat about frost but I think this is well worth thinking about.[/quote]
They speak of this in the Kenco fence guide. Your explanation is perfect. Your a pretty smart dude. That makes sense. Thanks for all you do here. It's so flat here I have a hard enough time just making em straight enough for the neighbors.... :hide:

 

[snake67]

Greybeard, I am not questioning any of the advice because I don't know squat about frost lines and such but I would like to suggest one other thing that he may want to consider and this phenomena might aggravate his fence situation. You know when you run a fence between two corners with a dip in the topography between these two corners there is an upward vector force on the wire because the wire isn't running truly horizontal and is trying to make itself work toward horizontal. Most of the time you never notice any problem but I have seen fences lift posts out of the ground just for this reason. If your friend has a situation like this, he might want to first try and sink a post or two in the lowest part of the dip like suggested and if these can be anchored it might help prevent the others from popping up as well. But like I said, I don't know squat about frost but I think this is well worth thinking about.

In the case of a dip/ditch, the best thing to do around here would be to either:

- End both sides of the fence on each bank with a end post and h-brace, and cobble up something in the gap. I've seen many things, but the most aesthetic-looking design was two posts on the edge of each bank with a post in bottom and 2x8 treated boards miter-cut to form a perfect V pattern of rails.

- Continue the fence through the gap, without drawing the wires down. Put in one long post half way down the bank on each side and tack horizontal poles/rails to them to close the gap, resting the poles on either sides of the bank/ground. Tack the wires to the correct height of the upright poles.

Aaron

We use your second option often - first option too much work for me - as long as it will hold animals it is good enough for the girls I go out with.

The final option (and the best plus easiest) for us is to run a post in the centre and posts up the sides and simply stretch some single wires as required to fill the hole. Looks good and works. T-posts work well here if you are lazy like me and do not want to sink extra posts.

It is not rocket science guys - anyone having problems just needs to talk to the neighours - they have been doing it for years and if it works for them it will work for you.

Fencing is easy - just a pain in the azz to do

Bez

 

[snake67]

this phenomena might aggravate his fence situation. You know when you run a fence between two corners with a dip in the topography between these two corners there is an upward vector force on the wire because the wire isn't running truly horizontal and is trying to make itself work toward horizontal. Most of the time you never notice any problem but I have seen fences lift posts out of the ground just for this reason. If your friend has a situation like this, he might want to first try and sink a post or two in the lowest part of the dip like suggested and if these can be anchored it might help prevent the others from popping up as well. But like I said, I don't know squat about frost but I think this is well worth thinking about.

They speak of this in the Kenco fence guide. Your explanation is perfect. Your a pretty smart dude. That makes sense. Thanks for all you do here. It's so flat here I have a hard enough time just making em straight enough for the neighbors.... :hide:

This problem is completely solved by using Aaron's method or my method. As for a fencing hand book - I would not think of spending money on one - there are so many different types of successful fence around here I could not imagine needing another. Besides that I would have to learn to read.

Bez

 

[Aaron]

The really, really lazy-man way that I have seen the odd man do is fill the dip/gap with a load of rocks or large pieces of scrap metal (think of old oilers and diamond harrows). :roll: