OK, I want to show my ignorance incase somebody else can learn from it. I have used pour on wormers for years. I went from Ivomectin to Cydectin, to Eprinex. Two weeks ago the vet was out preg checking. When that was over I had a heifer in the barn I thought was losing weight from hardware and asked him to look at her. His first question was how long since you wormed-My response was about 6 weeks prior. His second question was what with-my response was Eprinex. He immediately said she was wormy and we put her in the chute and dosed her with a oral drench called Panacur. We did use Panacur several years ago at vaccine time, and I remembered the cows looking better than ever after that. At this time my entire herd was healthy and after treating the heifer I turned her out like a dummy. One week later a few show some early signs, a few days later its all out in the herd. The day we treated the heifer my vet told me of how the pour-on wormers are becoming less effective and stressed rotating chemistrys. My ingorant butt thought that going from one pour on the the next type was rotating chemistrys. I found out I was wrong. My vet quickly diagnosed the problem both times and even identified the type of worm that was the main problem. Prescibed the oral drench for the herd, which I did promptly. It took about two days for the girls to start firming the stool up good and getting their appetite back.About that time the bulls I moved mid September started acting sluggish and losing appetite. We drenched them yesterday,and just before was the first time I saw the bulls getting the scours.No doubt the same problem, which is something I dont ever remember having here. Our herd is mostly closed except for some donors going to be flushed and a new bull every few years. It is unbelieveable how fast they can loose condition, and from what I understand can kill cattle if not attended to.This morning I feel better that we have a great and knowledgable vet that could make a determination and prescription so quick, and Im thankful for that. The bad thing is my girls are going into the cold season for mostly January calving with loss of body condition. Im afraid if I get them back in shape Im gonna have some big calves? I will definately learn from this and hope it helps somebody else. I also want to mention that the products I used in the past did a good job in my opinion, especially since this is the first occurance like this here. I used the product prescribed by my vet and suggest you do the same, maybe different in your area. The products I used are excellent products if you use them properly, which I did not. My failure to get informed cost me. So like the tv commercial says, dont be like the dumb me, ask your vet. Take my word, prevention is better than reaction!
Wormers
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Lucky_P
Well-known member
cotton,
I've been preaching some of that here for years. Pour-ons are a horrible, P-poor method of deworming cattle. In-depth studies have shown that, at best, only about 30% of the applied dose actually gets to where it needs to be to kill worms - and most of that is a result of the cows licking themselves and herdmates. But...they're easy to apply... and the drug manufacturer gets their $$$ and the producer thinks they've accomplished something.
You've also illustrated another point... most lay people have no idea about the active ingredients in any drug or medication that they have access to over-the-counter... how they work, interactions with other drugs/medications, etc.
Ivomec(ivermectin), Cydectin (moxidectin), Eprinex (eprinomectin) are all drugs in the same class...brothers and sisters, if you will... 'rotating' among those is, essentially, NOT rotating.
And, unfortunately, sometimes when a veterinarian is involved in the process, they aren't very diligent about explaining how/why/when to the producer.
But... that brings up another - and possibly more important point - a lot of what we thought we knew about 'rotating' dewormers is/was WRONG!. And, unfortunately, there are still a lot of producers - and veterinarians - who are still working under those mistaken assumptions.
Sure, you may have reached the point that all the worms on your place are totally resistant to all the dewormers in the 'avermectin' class(macrocyclic lactones)... but if you'd constantly been switching from avermectins to benzimidazoles(white drench dewormers like Panacur, Valbazen, Synanthic) to imidazothiazoles (Tramisol/Levasol, Rumatel), you might have been selecting for a population of parasites resistant to EVERY class of dewormers available. So... don't be in a big rush to 'rotate' to another class of dewormers... stick with the benzimidazoles (Panacur/Safeguard, Valbazen, etc.) until they no longer work, before you move to another class.
Work with nematode parasites of goats suggests that once a population of parasites has had selection pressure applied (by frequent &/or improper use of dewormers) and becomes resistant... the resistance to the avermectin and benzimidazole classes of drugs is 'forever'... but resistance to levamisole seems to wane an disappear... over a 10-15 year period.
I've been preaching some of that here for years. Pour-ons are a horrible, P-poor method of deworming cattle. In-depth studies have shown that, at best, only about 30% of the applied dose actually gets to where it needs to be to kill worms - and most of that is a result of the cows licking themselves and herdmates. But...they're easy to apply... and the drug manufacturer gets their $$$ and the producer thinks they've accomplished something.
You've also illustrated another point... most lay people have no idea about the active ingredients in any drug or medication that they have access to over-the-counter... how they work, interactions with other drugs/medications, etc.
Ivomec(ivermectin), Cydectin (moxidectin), Eprinex (eprinomectin) are all drugs in the same class...brothers and sisters, if you will... 'rotating' among those is, essentially, NOT rotating.
And, unfortunately, sometimes when a veterinarian is involved in the process, they aren't very diligent about explaining how/why/when to the producer.
But... that brings up another - and possibly more important point - a lot of what we thought we knew about 'rotating' dewormers is/was WRONG!. And, unfortunately, there are still a lot of producers - and veterinarians - who are still working under those mistaken assumptions.
Sure, you may have reached the point that all the worms on your place are totally resistant to all the dewormers in the 'avermectin' class(macrocyclic lactones)... but if you'd constantly been switching from avermectins to benzimidazoles(white drench dewormers like Panacur, Valbazen, Synanthic) to imidazothiazoles (Tramisol/Levasol, Rumatel), you might have been selecting for a population of parasites resistant to EVERY class of dewormers available. So... don't be in a big rush to 'rotate' to another class of dewormers... stick with the benzimidazoles (Panacur/Safeguard, Valbazen, etc.) until they no longer work, before you move to another class.
Work with nematode parasites of goats suggests that once a population of parasites has had selection pressure applied (by frequent &/or improper use of dewormers) and becomes resistant... the resistance to the avermectin and benzimidazole classes of drugs is 'forever'... but resistance to levamisole seems to wane an disappear... over a 10-15 year period.
The lack of effectiveness of the piur on owrmers has been cussed and discussed on these boards a lot.
If you put hem on just a decent nutritional plane so they gain a little weight during the winter without over doing it you should be ok come spring. You would be surprised at how fast they can regain condition if they aren;t feeding calves.
If you put hem on just a decent nutritional plane so they gain a little weight during the winter without over doing it you should be ok come spring. You would be surprised at how fast they can regain condition if they aren;t feeding calves.
jedstivers
Well-known member
On getting them back in condition feed a little cottonseed and corn. Both are cheap and easy to feed.
If you only want to feed one just go with cottonseed. 2-4lbs a day works good.
A 5 gallon bucket weighs 16lbs.
Watch the bulls getting to much cottonseed, it causes temporary sterility.
Even once the calves are on the ground if you just feed 2lbs of cottonseed it's unreal what it does for milk production.
On the wormer and things like it just remember google, you can learn about anything in the world now, all the knowlage is at your finger tips.
If you only want to feed one just go with cottonseed. 2-4lbs a day works good.
A 5 gallon bucket weighs 16lbs.
Watch the bulls getting to much cottonseed, it causes temporary sterility.
Even once the calves are on the ground if you just feed 2lbs of cottonseed it's unreal what it does for milk production.
On the wormer and things like it just remember google, you can learn about anything in the world now, all the knowlage is at your finger tips.
Great thread. Thanks for the education.
At our local TSC there is a thick layer of dust on all the pour on dewormers.
The Safe-Guard dewormer blocks with fenbendazole practically disappear overnight. Recently they had a pyramid of the 25lb blocks stacked to the ceiling.
The Safe-Guard dewormer blocks with fenbendazole practically disappear overnight. Recently they had a pyramid of the 25lb blocks stacked to the ceiling.
Thanks all. Good stuff Lucky P! On the recovery, I have decided to put out protien tubs and keep my low end hay in front of them. I was hoping to be a little later starting with the hay but I think the tubs/hay will provide a little boost but not too much. The bulls are starting on a grow out ration that includes corn, cotton seed meal, oats, vitamins, salt and a 10/10 sweet feed at 1.5% body weight. My low end hay is probably middle of the road, but I havent sent samples in yet. It was real nice coastal that got rained on the day after I cut it.I just hope to keep the cows in good enough shape without adding a ton of birthweight to the calves. I have never used creep but am thinking about finding a feeder now just in case.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
You can feed your way through a worm problem. You can't deworm your way out of a 'feed deficiency' issue.
Have seen too many cattle on a plane of nutrition not adequate for their stage of growth or production...deworming will have minimal effect on those... in most cases, those 'wormy-looking' cattle don't have an ivomec/panacur deficiency - they have an energy/protein deficiency.
Have seen too many cattle on a plane of nutrition not adequate for their stage of growth or production...deworming will have minimal effect on those... in most cases, those 'wormy-looking' cattle don't have an ivomec/panacur deficiency - they have an energy/protein deficiency.
Tom I was worried my cattle might get too much. Stuck one block per 8 head in between the hay and water. They started fighting over the blocks immediately. Couldn't get them to leave the area until the blocks had been licked down to candy bar size. They act like crack heads for the molasses.
TexasBred
Well-known member
JWBrahman":16dtkzlb said:
Lazy cattleman love the things. I just put out some last week. :lol: :lol:
hicky214
Well-known member
I was going to do a poor on Cydectin this week for my cows-bull for lice etc, can I do the pour on and the safeguard block at the same time? We just had our first frost here if thats still important.
A
Anonymous
There is nothing on either label that says you cant use two wormers together. What kind of worms are you dealing with that you feel you need 2? Cydectin does protect from 34 different species. Personally I would use a drench in the fall and the pour on in the spring. Depending where you are usually lice doesn't appear till late winter and your pour on protection will be gone by then.
jedstivers
Well-known member
You can keep back rubbers up with lambda-cy for lice too.
We have lice hit bad by February and that's no time to be trying to work them.
We have lice hit bad by February and that's no time to be trying to work them.
We use Ultra Boss pour on for flies. Just to reiterate, we thought we were rotating wormers as we should. Please check your program to be sure. There is some great info in this thread that I wish I would have known before now. I dont wish this type outbreak on anybody. My cows are doing better now and I feel sure they will be ok. I am going to re-treat them next week on my vets advise incase of a second round. That is another thing I never considered. The worms work in cycles. Sometimes a second round is needed to be thourough. Also talked to a lady today that is a area rep for my breed. She has found many people using the pour on wormers for fly control, and that is leading to resistance to an extent. Please do yourself a favor and use the fly control for fly problems , and rotate the chemistrys when worming.
312InchMagnum
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wow glad I read this...i currently have 4 mini hereford heifers right now...two are 1.5 year old and two are 1 year old...noticed one of my 1.5 year olds losing condition in october...its been a year since she was de-wormed...wormed her (and the other 3) with pour on ivermectin a few weeks ago...i currently dont have a head gate or anything, just an alley i can push them in...she might look a tad better, but not much...i too am worried she has some hardware...actually bringing her to vet next week to figure out whats wrong...maybe its just worms...what exact features made the vet think she was wormy?
Kilroy60, I think the Safeguard blocks contain the same active ingredient as the drench but your leaving the cows to dose themselves. Probably ok for maintance but maybe you still need at least 1 dose per year that you know how much each animal is recieving.Pour-ons can be effective for a while if you dose based on weight. Even so over time some types of worms might become immune. The pour-ons give some control of lice and flys but you can use a pour on for that specific purpose that is not a wormer, and do the same thing. I like Ultra Boss for example.
312Magnum, an alley will work as long as you can get the hook in their mouth as far as oral drenchs go. The heifer that started things here showed signs that I learned to Identify after several others in my herd started having them. My Vet is very experienced having practiced over 40 years, he just knew. The signs I found were: 1. obviously lots of weight loss, usually acurring rapidly. 2. Loss of appetite, and just generally acting like they feel bad. 3. Terrible diarehha. The feces was liquid, and black in color, with a foul stench. The black color is because of internal bleeding.
When it was just the one I didnt understand at first. Just penned her up and tried to feed her. During this time she developed the diarehha, which occurs late in the game. The whole outbreak here took less than a week. The bulls I am growing out, to put into perspective how much weight they lose so quick, lost between 200-250lbs(each) in less than a week. I already had identified the problem and was just going to treat them just in case. They started showing the symptoms the day I treated them. I made the estimates based on their adg at weaning, then took their weights and figured the loss weight by the difference in adg for the number of days from weaning to the problem. For them, I could not have treated them any earlier if I was waiting to see a problem. My whole herd was treated with a pour on just a few weeks prior to the outbreak. Hope this helps
312Magnum, an alley will work as long as you can get the hook in their mouth as far as oral drenchs go. The heifer that started things here showed signs that I learned to Identify after several others in my herd started having them. My Vet is very experienced having practiced over 40 years, he just knew. The signs I found were: 1. obviously lots of weight loss, usually acurring rapidly. 2. Loss of appetite, and just generally acting like they feel bad. 3. Terrible diarehha. The feces was liquid, and black in color, with a foul stench. The black color is because of internal bleeding.
When it was just the one I didnt understand at first. Just penned her up and tried to feed her. During this time she developed the diarehha, which occurs late in the game. The whole outbreak here took less than a week. The bulls I am growing out, to put into perspective how much weight they lose so quick, lost between 200-250lbs(each) in less than a week. I already had identified the problem and was just going to treat them just in case. They started showing the symptoms the day I treated them. I made the estimates based on their adg at weaning, then took their weights and figured the loss weight by the difference in adg for the number of days from weaning to the problem. For them, I could not have treated them any earlier if I was waiting to see a problem. My whole herd was treated with a pour on just a few weeks prior to the outbreak. Hope this helps
