Wormer side effects

[bubchub]

I needed to worm my QH mare last week so I went and bought the wormer (EquiMax- ivermectin 1.87%, praziquantel 14.03%)and gave it to her. She is raising a 2-3 week old colt and is already bred back. I then read the label AFTER I gave it to her. Is it going to hurt her nursing colt or her one on the way?

 

[Chuck]

Good question for your vet. All I can see on the label is that it hasn't been evaluated on pregnant or lactating mares. The MSDS says it may cause harm to the pregnancy Hard to know why they put that on there. Might be a real problem. Might just be avoiding liability. Nothing can be done about it now, just remember to read the label first no matter what. Any question-don't do it till you find out for sure. Talk to your vet.
Good Luck to you. Hope you come out all right.

 

[Alan]

Have you had your mare preg checked yet? I'm assuming you bred her back on the foal heat since she has such a young foal at her side. If so pretty good chance of her absorbing the fetus anyway. Nothing you can do now about it just get her preg checked if she doesnt come back in heat in 2 to 3 weeks after she was bred. The wormer box or insert should have a phone number on it for the manufactor, you can give them a call, they are the best source for any answers you may have.

Good luck,
Alan

 

[bubchub]

I have to have her sonogramed in next week. I hope she is still bred. The lady guarantees her pregnancies so we should still be ok.

 

[Alan]

That's sounds good, most breeders have a live foal guarantee. If she is not bred I wouldn't blame the Mare, Stallion, or wormer. But I have learned the hard way the less info to the stallion owner, and for that matter the facility doing the AI, the better. You have a live foal guarantee, it's thier jobs to get you, the client, the live foal. My understanding of "live foal" is up and nursing, I may be wrong, didn't ever think about a fatal birth defect after a couple of days (?). Anyone know this one?

My point is, I wouldn't mention the wormer to either party, it's done and will only give them an excuse to use down the road if they need it.

We have a Mare that I will have preg check with ultra-sound next week at 45 days, she was positive with an ultra sound at 18 days but we have tried to get her to settle for a year and a half. I won't go into the long story, but I know for 95% sure it's not our mare. Lots of live and learn lessons on this one for us.

Good luck,
Alan

 

[Muratic]

I then read the label AFTER I gave it to her. Is it going to hurt her nursing colt or her one on the way?

That was REALLY stupid. Here's your sign :roll:

Folks, common now you can't be in that big a hurry that you can't :stop: to read a label before you administer anything. Give me a break

 

[Chuck]

But I have learned the hard way the less info to the stallion owner, and for that matter the facility doing the AI, the better. You have a live foal guarantee, it's thier jobs to get you, the client, the live foal. My understanding of "live foal" is up and nursing, I may be wrong, didn't ever think about a fatal birth defect after a couple of days (?). Anyone know this one?

My point is, I wouldn't mention the wormer to either party, it's done and will only give them an excuse to use down the road if they need it.

Alan-I can't believe you wrote this. I don't think when the mare owner makes a mistake the stud owner should be expected to make it right. They may choose to help him out or may not. Sometimes you just have to take your lumps and do the right thing, not look for somebody else to take care of it for you. As I recall, BubChub is a young guy, who may need his neighbors later. Stuff like you suggest here will ruin a reputation in a heartbeat. It's called honesty and integrity. Once you become known as being willing to shade the truth you can't get it back.

 

[Alan]

Chuck give me a break! The Stallion owner still makes a ton of money on every shipment of semen. To look at the other side the Stallion owner as well as the AI provider (facility) will use any excuse that you hand them to protect thier reputation. The client is the only one that loses! In my case the stallion owner still charged $275 to ship the semen Fed Ex each time, plus a deposit to cover the loss of the shipping container, which I had to pay an addition fee to ship back. This was in addition to the stud fee (first shipment was free after the stud fee was paid). The AI facility charged me $250 each time to AI her. So tell me what the facility or stallion owner is out if you don't lay blame. I didn't say to lay blame any where, I said do not give them any extra excuses to why they are not getting the job done. Both the stallion owner and the AI facilty are business they're not only there to provide a service but they do it to make money and they do! As a client it's my right to make sure they get the job done and to hold them accountable for why it's not getting done, assuming I have already been satisfied the problem is not with my mare. In my case I'm sure it is not.

As a stallion owner (and I am) I would love to collect semen from my stallion and ship it at an additional $275 for what ever reason. As long as the motility is there, what's the problem in making extra money on a breeding season? But if I can't get the mares bred then I had better look at my stallion. If I can't get one mare bred look at the AI facility or the mare.

In bubchub case I read a little extra into his/her post, as we all do sometimes. The mare has a 3 to 4 week old foal at her side which tells me the mare was probably bred back on the foaling heat cycle, while mares do get bred and will get bred on the foaling heat the chances of retaining the foal is pretty low compared to future cycles. Bubchub made a mistake by not consulting a vet or reading the lable, but I really don't fill it was a huge mistake. The wormer should not hurt the foal on the ground and what's the harm if the mare absorbed the fetus? Bubchub mistake may cost a few hundred $, but maybe not anything, or maybe the fetus was already absorbed requiring a rebreeding anyway. My point is way give the stallion owner or AI facility any other excuse? They make plenty of money on the deal everytime your mare is not bred.

JMO
Alan

 

[Muratic]

My point is, I wouldn't mention the wormer to either party, it's done and will only give them an excuse to use down the road if they need it.

Note for future reference...do not do business with Alan

 

[Alan]

My point is, I wouldn't mention the wormer to either party, it's done and will only give them an excuse to use down the road if they need it.

Note for future reference...do not do business with Alan

Makes me wonder if some of you guys have any idea of what a standard breeding contract should contain. Live foal guarantee Does not matter if you gave your horse wormer, she got kicked in the stomach, or she got sick and aborted. Once again... live foal guarantee. I'm saying why give them excuses... don't spread nasty rumors ... just don't say anything. If you know what your doing you should have a live foal guarantee!

Nuff said.
Alan

 

[Alan]

Muratic,

Just cause you picked a fight...

I then read the label AFTER I gave it to her. Is it going to hurt her nursing colt or her one on the way?

That was REALLY stupid. Here's your sign :roll:

Folks, common now you can't be in that big a hurry that you can't :stop: to read a label before you administer anything. Give me a break

Do you really expect people to believe everyone reads the lable on everything they take or give? Just because you posted this type of post tells me you probably don't.

I do own a stallion and my breeding contract has a live foal guarantee, so I don't care if I have to ship semen a dozen times because:

A) I get paid extra to do it
B) I want his foals on the ground and promoted

I should, but I don't always read everything, give Bubchub a break.

Now nuff said.
Alan

 

[Muratic]

I understand what a live foal guarentee is. But what you are saying is that if YOU are the one that compromised the pregnancy you still feel that you need that live foal at the owner of the stud's expence. Even tho you were the idiot that aborted it?

And yes, If it is a product that I have never used or it has been a while since I used it, I always read the label. That is a no-brainer.

Your last few posts here only tell me one thing. You are a lier and a cheat who will do anything to come out on top no matter the cost or who you might bring down in the process.

The fact that you admit to and give advise to with hold facts to a business associate of any type for any reason tells me you are just not the type of person that I want to do business with. You cannot be trusted. Where I come from a man's handshake and his word are good enough for me. That is how I do business and that is how I will continue to business, based on trust. My clients apprecieate it and they know when I say I will do something it will be done with ethics and honesty.

I would have taken this to the private message feature but I felt this needed to be said on the forum. Feel free to pm if you see a need to hash this out any more. We have both spoke out minds here. And, no, I am not hiding behind the computer. Anyone who knows me can tell you that I would tell you this directly to your face.

 

[Muratic]

give Bubchub a break.

Newbie, rookie, youngster whatever you want to call him. BubChub pulled a stupid stunt. Not a rookie mistake, just a dumb mistake. I hope that it does not compromise the pregnancy, but in the event that it does...he will at least know to read the label first. School of hard knocks? Maybe.

 

[Chuck]

Makes me wonder if some of you guys have any idea of what a standard breeding contract should contain. Live foal guarantee Does not matter if you gave your horse wormer, she got kicked in the stomach, or she got sick and aborted. Once again... live foal guarantee. I'm saying why give them excuses... don't spread nasty rumors ... just don't say anything. If you know what your doing you should have a live foal guarantee!

Alan I was going to leave this alone-I had my say- but trying to justify your position by insulting other peoples intelligence sure won't help you. If I drain the oil out of my truck and drive to town should Ford have to replace my engine? A free piece of advice,guaranteed to be worth at least as much as you paid for it- put down your shovel before the hole gets any deeper.
I'm done with this.

 

[Alan]

I understand what a live foal guarentee is.

You obviously don't, you make that very obvious in your argument. But just because I'm enjoying this a little (too much maybe) I'll try to clearify it on more time for you.

1. Bubchub wants to use my stallion, shipped AI, I send him a contract stated for $1500 I will guarantee a live foal, we will try to get his mare to settle for a period of 3yrs. The first fertile semen shipment is included in the stud fee, each additional fertile semen shipment is $250 to cover shipping and handling, there is no limit to how many times I will ship him semen (at $250 each). After 3 years if his mare is not settled he will lose his all his investment. I will provide Bubchub a motility rate on my stallion and also state this stallion has x amount of foals on the ground to show he is a "proven" stud. (Now this is the part that bubchub has to decide if he wants to take the risk, he know my stallion is proven and he know his mare is proven).

2. Bubchub says okay, signs the contract and provides me with payment of $1500. We have legal contract.

3. Bubchub's mare has delivered a foal and now is ready for me to ship semen to breed back...I ship the semen and the mare is AI'd.

4. 28 days later Bubchub calls me and says "I didn't read a wormer label and gave it to my mare ... she is in heat again." I say "gee sorry to hear that I'll ship you more semen as soon as you send me $250". Bubchub says " I feel bad about this and my AI facility is going to charge another $200" I say I know thats part of the breeding hazards."

5. I recieve $250 and ship the second batch of semen. 40 days later Bubchub calls me and says " My buddy Muratic was over looking at my mare... she stepped on his foot and he got mad and kicked the cr@p out of her. I'm afraid she has aborted. I say "gee that's to bad, send me another $250 and I'll send you some more semen". "I'm sorry you are having problems but I'll keep sending you semen for up to 3 years at $250 ea. until you get a foal up and nursing. As a stallion owner, I really don't care why you need more semen, as a stallion owner I care about getting another foal on the ground and getting it promoted... oh yea and making more money each time I ship semen.

Now as the mare owner here's what I do to help reduce the risk (the only risk is to the mare owner in a AI breeding contract).

1. Make sure my mare is in breeding condition, good shape, good weight, all worming and vacs done prior to breeding.

2. I find a good AI facility well in advance to breeding.

3. Have her cultured a week before breeding, she has to come back clean to proceed.

4. have her ultra sound before breeding, while in heat, to make sure the folical is ready. (culture and ultra sound should be part of the $200 package for AI facility).

5. Have semen shipped "counter to counter", which means the stallion owner drives it to the airport and the AI facility or you pick it up frome the airport. This is only if you haven't delivered your mare to the stallions facility, which is the best.

6. Make sure you get a motility rate on semen, 50% or under is considered sterile. Your contract says fertile semen.

7. Breed your mare and pray.

Now Muratic, as I said before... As the stallion owner I really don't care why I'm shipping bubchub semen 22 times I want to get his mare bred to get the foal on the ground and get an extra $250 each time... I'm making money bubchub is the only one losing. I don't care if he wormed his horse and it aborted.. It's a live and learn for him.

As the mare owner I know I'm the only one taking the risk, so I'm going to hold the stallion owner and the AI facility accountable for getting my proven mare bred by doing the following:

1. make sure my proven mare is ready to be bred, as stated above.

2. Make sure the stallion owner send me fertile semen if not I get a extra shipment free of charge and add a addition shipment to the end of the 3 year period.

3. Make sure the AI facility does it's job, culture, ultra sounds, clean facility, and recieves the semen and runs the motility test in a timely manner.

Know one needs to know you wormed your horse because they don't care and they don't need any excuses. It has no effect on the standard AI breeding contract. THE MARE OWNER IS THE ONLY ONE AT RISK IN A AI BREEDING CONTRACT.

Alan

 

[Alan]

If I drain the oil out of my truck and drive to town should Ford have to replace my engine? A free piece of advice,guaranteed to be worth at least as much as you paid for it

Chuck,

Your right this is getting a little stupid, you're comparing apples and oranges. If your truck contract states it will replace your enigine because you ran it out of oil than okay, but you and I both know thats not the case. No auto dealer give a open ended "live engine guarantee".

I've been involved in both ends of the breeding contract for a few years and you and Muratic are a bit lost.

But I agree, I'll put down my shovel, nuff said. Getting tried of buring you two. Get on line and read a standard AI contract. Thing happen through negligence and accidents... mares lose foals.

Alan

 

[tapeworm]

Bub if your just a young guy you learned a good lesson...like Muratic said read FIRST. She is kinda rough sometime but so am I..I like to know what somebody thinks
Now...you get to make another choice..do you want to grow up to be a MAN like Chuck or somebody like Alan. All the Poco Bueno and Leo bred foals in the world arent worth giving up your integrity. I can promise you one thing for sure..20 years from now you wont regret giving up that foal..you can always replace that one with time. But i promise you will always regret givng up your integrity...you wont ever bre able to get that back..you start out just giving up little pieces like Alan tells you and before you know it youre just another snide horse trader or horse breeder..it gets easier and easier to be dishonest about the big stuff
People liek Alan can alwasy find ways to justify there own lack of integrity..you dont have to be like him though
Good luck to you Bub..try to be more like Chuck and youll be a winner for the long haul


And a word for you Alan...you seem to like to say that youre the only one that knows about the horse biz....a lot of us was producing some of the best performance cowhorses in the west while you was producing yellow diapers...didnt have to give up any integrity to do it either

 

[Alan]

Sorry you feel that way tapeworm... some of you guys just aren't getting it. The stallion owner isn't losing anything on bubs mistake (and bubs mistake is not a big deal at all, it happens all the time) if it's a live foal guarantee contract, the stallion owner is making money on bubs mistake and the only person to feel bad about is bub. Oh, and I do pretty good with my own businesses just the way I am.

Alan

 

[Muratic]

Gee tape, I didn't know you could be so eloquent. I kinda like it!

Alan will never understand the point we are are trying to make here. I vote to write it off as a lost cause.

Good luck with the mare BubChub.

 

[msscamp]

If she is not bred I wouldn't blame the Mare, Stallion, or wormer. But I have learned the hard way the less info to the stallion owner, and for that matter the facility doing the AI, the better. You have a live foal guarantee, it's thier jobs to get you, the client, the live foal.

My point is, I wouldn't mention the wormer to either party, it's done and will only give them an excuse to use down the road if they need it.

We have a Mare that I will have preg check with ultra-sound next week at 45 days, she was positive with an ultra sound at 18 days but we have tried to get her to settle for a year and a half. I won't go into the long story, but I know for 95% sure it's not our mare. Lots of live and learn lessons on this one for us.

Good luck,
Alan

I'm not trying to get in on this melee, but your post bothers me. First you say "If she is not bred I wouldn't blame the Mare, Stallion, or wormer." Then you turn around and say "but I know for 95% sure it's not our mare." What is that if not blame? Then your advice to Bubchub is "You have a live foal guarantee, it's thier jobs to get you, the client, the live foal." That guarantee does not apply when it is irresponsibility, ignorance (sorry Bubchub) or neglect that causes the mare to abort or otherwise lose the foal, nor is it 'their' job to get the client a live foal - it is a joint effort between the owner of the mare, the stallion, and the AI service. To actively advise someone of the following quote "But I have learned the hard way the less info to the stallion owner, and for that matter the facility doing the AI, the better." is wrong in my book - it smacks of dishonesty, deceit, and fraud. As 1/2 of the transaction, the stallion owner deserves to be informed of all developments, otherwise the integrity, honesty, and reputation of both parties can very easily and permanently be compromised. The AI facility deserves to be informed because they are the ones performing the insemination, and if they knew about the latest developements, perhaps they could do something about it or at the very least prevent dollars from going up in smoke. I lost a great deal of respect for you on this one, Alan. I doubt that it makes any difference to you, but there it is.