Will this work?

[A-RRanch]

Hi all,
Im new on here and starting a small operation on 160 acres in College Station TX. This is what I want to do. Let me know if this is a bad idea lol.... I'm going to buy some heavy bred cows and turn them out for 6 months. I will let my bull breed them again this spring/summer and in Sept/Oct sell a heavy bred cow with a 600 lb calf (estimating) I plan to only keep the bull all winter that way I am feeding no cows. They eat grass for six months and sold before winter. Then in spring I buy more and do it again. Is this a reasonable business model for a small cow operation? Thanks for any advice!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Not giving yourself enough time to calve them and have 600 lb calves to sell.

 

[backhoeboogie]

The old saying goes to "buy low and sell high". You will be doing the opposite for the market typical models here in TX. Drought and other things affect the markets but typically things are higher this time of year and lower in the fall.

If every calf lives, you might come out ahead.

No matter what, we are all gambling with the market. You could win.

 

[stockbub]

You might as well say, we are in April. Calve say in June. Six months is in December meaning, you're already buying hay. 600 lb Mark may be hard to achieve during that time. I you just looking to turn over, the sale when calves are 3 to 4 months and repeat. 6 cows hay will cost 900 to 1200 on repurchased cows. 6 calves x 700 = 4200 - 1200 = 3000 more. This works ever other year.2 calf crops one year, 1 the next.30% more. You also get more use of your bull.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

Not giving yourself enough time to calve them and have 600 lb calves to sell.

+1.

 

[A-RRanch]

I have two calves on the ground now from a couple Santa cross cows that have been here. They calved within the last three weeks. If I can have calves at this time they would push 600 before October wouldnt they?

 

[Dave]

If you were calving now the cows woldn't be getting bred until May. That is 4 months bred in the fall. That is not my definition of a heavy bred cow in Sept. If you are selling all the cows there is no reason to keep the bull all winter. He isn't making you any money and is likely to go walk about looking for company. If you are turning cows over without calving them yourself there is no reason to have a high dollar bull. Buy a bull who will put on some weight while you own him and send him to town along with the cows.
I have done sort of this same thing. But I bought cows to calf in February and March. Cows bought as bred cows now wont be weaning 600 pound calves in Sept.

 

[A-RRanch]

Your right, my timeline is off. I cant expect calves the same time each year and to sell those cows bred heavy in 6 months. My other question is am I better off keeping my cows that I know are easy keepers and produce a good calf? If my two Santa cross cows just calved and I have that Brahma in with them now when will they be bred again? May? So when will they calve out?

 

[Texas PaPaw]

If this were my operation, I would buy 7-8 mo breds in January or February and calve them out. As my grass declined in the summer I would sell off the biggest pairs first and have everything sold by Labor day. In selling by labor day you will avoid selling in the cheaper fall market and also it will allow your grass to grow and stockpile as standing hay for use the following Jan/Feb before the ryegrass gets going. I would buy older cows and not mess with a bull. Should be able to buy them at slightly over packer price and if you get into the sell-in-august/buy- in-Jan mode you should always be able to buy replacement cows for less than the one you sold.

Obviously it is too late to buy in Jan this year, so I would advise buying 7-8 mo breds asap. Try to buy them where they cost less than $.90 lb. and you should make a profit if good pasture is your main nutrition. Can't afford to feed much hay or feed at this juncture. Just bought some 7-8 mo breds in the last 2 weeks and averaged $.78, so they are available. Can't have a 6wt calf by labor day but should be able to have them weighing around 400# if they calve in April.

Another important point is to make sure you always have enough pasture so the cows can maintain their weight. If you grass STARTS getting short, sell enough of the bigger pairs, regardless of calf size, to allow for AMPLE grazing for the ones you keep. Starving cows to grow their calves bigger is a losing proposition as the cows weight loss value can often exceed the value gain of the calf.

There is money to be made with these old cows if your timing is right and you have an economical feed source.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[A-RRanch]

Thanks Brock that is really good advice and I appreciate it!

 

[Dave]

If this were my operation, I would buy 7-8 mo breds in January or February and calve them out. As my grass declined in the summer I would sell off the biggest pairs first and have everything sold by Labor day. In selling by labor day you will avoid selling in the cheaper fall market and also it will allow your grass to grow and stockpile as standing hay for use the following Jan/Feb before the ryegrass gets going. I would buy older cows and not mess with a bull. Should be able to buy them at slightly over packer price and if you get into the sell-in-august/buy- in-Jan mode you should always be able to buy replacement cows for less than the one you sold.

Obviously it is too late to buy in Jan this year, so I would advise buying 7-8 mo breds asap. Try to buy them where they cost less than $.90 lb. and you should make a profit if good pasture is your main nutrition. Can't afford to feed much hay or feed at this juncture. Just bought some 7-8 mo breds in the last 2 weeks and averaged $.78, so they are available. Can't have a 6wt calf by labor day but should be able to have them weighing around 400# if they calve in April.

Another important point is to make sure you always have enough pasture so the cows can maintain their weight. If you grass STARTS getting short, sell enough of the bigger pairs, regardless of calf size, to allow for AMPLE grazing for the ones you keep. Starving cows to grow their calves bigger is a losing proposition as the cows weight loss value can often exceed the value gain of the calf.

There is money to be made with these old cows if your timing is right and you have an economical feed source.

Just my 2 cents worth.

This is a pretty good explanation of what I have been doing for year. It works. The only change I would make to his explanation is those cows that get sold off early. I look at the cows, not the size of the calf. I sell the poor doing cows first. The ones that are not putting on pounds. When you are dealing with old cows some will put on wieght and some wont. That salvage value on the cow is a large part of what you are selling. Always keep that in mind. An old cow who isn't gaining when grass is good will only do worse when grass starts going downhill.

 

[A-RRanch]

This makes good sense to me and is only a slight modification to what I had planned to do anyway. My question is this, are you buying these old cows in Jan/Feb at the sale barn? and If I want to stay under $.90 on 7-8 mos bred right now what am I looking for pricewise on the 7-8 mos bred in Jan/Feb? Same?

 

[Dave]

This year I am doing something different for a change up. But I normally start buying cows in Dec. It can take a little bit to put together a bunch of cows like this from the salebarn. Another guy I know who does this goes down to the high desert country and buys a pot load directly from the ranchers. He gets his all at once.

 

[ga.prime]

Of course it will work.

 

[wbvs58]

To come anywhere near your aims you are relying on being able to buy the right cows each time and then hoping that they are bred the time that you have been told. Not always reliable from my experience.
Ken

 

[Texas PaPaw]

If this were my operation, I would buy 7-8 mo breds in January or February and calve them out. As my grass declined in the summer I would sell off the biggest pairs first and have everything sold by Labor day. In selling by labor day you will avoid selling in the cheaper fall market and also it will allow your grass to grow and stockpile as standing hay for use the following Jan/Feb before the ryegrass gets going. I would buy older cows and not mess with a bull. Should be able to buy them at slightly over packer price and if you get into the sell-in-august/buy- in-Jan mode you should always be able to buy replacement cows for less than the one you sold.

Obviously it is too late to buy in Jan this year, so I would advise buying 7-8 mo breds asap. Try to buy them where they cost less than $.90 lb. and you should make a profit if good pasture is your main nutrition. Can't afford to feed much hay or feed at this juncture. Just bought some 7-8 mo breds in the last 2 weeks and averaged $.78, so they are available. Can't have a 6wt calf by labor day but should be able to have them weighing around 400# if they calve in April.

Another important point is to make sure you always have enough pasture so the cows can maintain their weight. If you grass STARTS getting short, sell enough of the bigger pairs, regardless of calf size, to allow for AMPLE grazing for the ones you keep. Starving cows to grow their calves bigger is a losing proposition as the cows weight loss value can often exceed the value gain of the calf.

There is money to be made with these old cows if your timing is right and you have an economical feed source.

Just my 2 cents worth.

This is a pretty good explanation of what I have been doing for year. It works. The only change I would make to his explanation is those cows that get sold off early. I look at the cows, not the size of the calf. I sell the poor doing cows first. The ones that are not putting on pounds. When you are dealing with old cows some will put on wieght and some wont. That salvage value on the cow is a large part of what you are selling. Always keep that in mind. An old cow who isn't gaining when grass is good will only do worse when grass starts going downhill.

Dave-Excellent points about the poor doing cows. You explained it very well. As you mentioned, grass growth and quality peaks in the spring and usually declines as we get further into summer so it is usually necessary to reduce our stocking rate as the summer wears on. It really makes sense to sell off the worst performers as we go. No use giving away our grass by grazing it with a cow that is loosing value every day. Better to save it for cows that will use it efficiently.

 

[A-RRanch]

OK so my new question is since Im only looking at 8-15 cows at most really should I just keep the cows once I find good ones and try to build a herd of good cows and keep selling calves??

 

[ga.prime]

You can do whatever you want to do.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

OK so my new question is since Im only looking at 8-15 cows at most really should I just keep the cows once I find good ones and try to build a herd of good cows and keep selling calves??

Here are some of the advantages of buying older heavy breds in Jan and selling out by labor day:

No bull necessary-can carry an extra cow on the feed he would eat-Oh, did I mention no bull to deal with!!
No concerns about cows breeding back or aborting due to heat, bad bull, etc
Very minimal hay/supplement feeding needed-no need to try and buy expensive hay in a drought
No cows to tie you down during the holidays
Can run a few more cows on same acreage because only have them 8-9 months.
Easy to adjust stocking rate to current feed supply/conditions-when we have the next drought just sell earlier-will make a smaller profit
No need to spend past/future profits feeding thru a drought
Minimal calving problems-You don't get to be an old bred cow if you didn't properly do your job as a younger cow.
Can generally buy these older breds for just slightly more than their kill (salvage) value- Kill value is generally lowest in Nov-Jan and higher in the spring-summer-this allows you to buy low/sell high
With the numbers you are looking at it should be relatively easy to source them in your area.
Sale barns can process them for you if desired-minimal processing is needed

It has been my experience that this is an easier, more profitable program for me. Your results may vary.

Just another 2 cents worth.

 

[A-RRanch]

Thanks for all the replies I appreciate the help. Nearly everyone on this forum is super helpful and it is good information and conversation. On that note ga.prime I would appreciate it if you would just avoid my threads from now on. You obviously don't want to help but like to post for some reason. Thanks!