Who would use this bull?

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It says it right there, "An outcross pedigree for the show cattle scene"
Unfortunately I'm not seeing what's so outstanding about him for showing either... The dam doesn't look too bad, but both him and his daughters don't have much for a waist.. certainly nothing I'd run after.
 
Nesikep":3uqh6ggo said:
It says it right there, "An outcross pedigree for the show cattle scene"
Unfortunately I'm not seeing what's so outstanding about him for showing either... The dam doesn't look too bad, but both him and his daughters don't have much for a waist.. certainly nothing I'd run after.
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I saw the show cattle reference, but is there really such a disconnect between what makes a good cow and what makes a show cow? If so, what's the dang point of show cows? The EPDs must have something good in there to someone better-versed than me...
 
Nesikep":13l7r4kt said:
The EPD's don't matter apparently.. just has to have a 'look' to them.. and it's one I don't particularly like
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agree! as best I can tell, "show" means fuzzy and sway-backed, to this newbie
 
In todays society the show ring has very little to do with production potential.....
and it seems to get worse every year and with every species....not just cattle.
 
Son of Butch":2eq7kkdh said:
boondocks":2eq7kkdh said:
CED 1, DOC -5, marbling -.12....etc.
What uses would this critter work for???? Must be for a specific need, but what?
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Show Ring
Goal: To fool/trick judges
Result: Ruin breeds
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Use to be show cattle were to rep. The breed and the breeder. Now they want all the breeds to fit a cookie cutter mold, and no one actually breeds cattle. They just replicate.
 
I understand the frustration with the show ring, but have a different opinion. First off, I will readily admit there are a lot of holes in this bulls epds. I wouldn't use him personally, but in all reality he is top 15percent in dollars weaned. A cow/calf producer might find this appealing. (Just making an excuse, I don't love him, but for folks selling at weaning he might not be bad). My biggest difference in opinion is with the negative connotation of the show ring. I'll admit I like fancy females, but more than that, I have seen the number of younger folks showing has brought in. If it allows younger people to meet and make connections with others interested in the cattle industry I'm more than for it. It teaches kids hard work, responsibility, a great deal about raising cattle and introduces them to others with the same love... it gets a bad rap, but I'm not sure it's fair. I love college football, but have no interest in the NFL. I care deeply about our juniors and their shows, but have little interest in open shows. I've never researched it but would think Jr shows make up the vast majority of them.

On a side note, wouldn't it be interesting to see the epds of commercial bulls. I'd say I've seen some that were far inferior (and superior) than this one.
 
Smallpotatoes":2k78kwss said:
I understand the frustration with the show ring, but have a different opinion. First off, I will readily admit there are a lot of holes in this bulls epds. I wouldn't use him personally, but in all reality he is top 15percent in dollars weaned. A cow/calf producer might find this appealing. (Just making an excuse, I don't love him, but for folks selling at weaning he might not be bad). My biggest difference in opinion is with the negative connotation of the show ring. I'll admit I like fancy females, but more than that, I have seen the number of younger folks showing has brought in. If it allows younger people to meet and make connections with others interested in the cattle industry I'm more than for it. It teaches kids hard work, responsibility, a great deal about raising cattle and introduces them to others with the same love... it gets a bad rap, but I'm not sure it's fair. I love college football, but have no interest in the NFL. I care deeply about our juniors and their shows, but have little interest in open shows. I've never researched it but would think Jr shows make up the vast majority of them.

On a side note, wouldn't it be interesting to see the epds of commercial bulls. I'd say I've seen some that were far inferior (and superior) than this one.
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Very well put. Unfortunately, you will not convince this crowd. Many have tried, many have failed. It all comes down to perception. Some of us have a deep understanding of the livestock show world, and those that do not have a preconceived notion of the matter. I can point out several herds I am quite familiar with in various breeds that work in the real world and produce stock that can bring home banners at the biggest shows in the nation, but there is no convincing some people.
 
As far as showing cattle, I think it is a fine activity for children to learn a lot of life lessons and responsibilities. It is also a good method of showcasing and advertising for registered breeders. I also know some folks who show, and have productive herds. My issues with showing comes mainly in the form of some of the club calf breeding, and some of that type seems to be getting into some of the open breed shows as well. The concept of breeding for hair, and some of the structural, and frame trends are at a disconnect with cattle in the breeding pasture.
The bull that the post is about, seems to have EPD's that are in line with some of the "show stock". I would not use him because of his BW and CED. Those are EPD's that are pretty accurate early on as far as EPD's go. I used a bull years ago with a very similar BW, and had some calving issues with him on cows, not the introduction to Angus that I was expecting. Since then I have used bulls with 3 and under BW, and haven't had many issues at all, except for an occasional abnormal presentation, like breech birth or legs not coming right.
With EPD's as high as they are now, the growth numbers on that bull should ideally higher with that high of BW.
 
He has 3000C in his pedigree on top and bottom, back when our son was showing I tried breeding to 3000C to get him a show heifer. Never got one, but they were beautiful cows. I don't know much about his dam or sire but like what is behind them in the pedigree. Fullback and 3000C were the go to show bull for a number of years. I imagine the docility number is correct as well some of the 3000C's were fruitcakes.

gizmom
 
So, I'll admit to knowing nothing about the show market. I did grow up in ag country and spent time at the county fair watching the judging, etc. From there, I got the idea that the animals were hopefully good (even ideal) representatives of their breed. Was that wrong, or have things changed maybe?
Over the past couple of years, I had (accurately, I think) picked up that the current show animals are to have a certain "look" (phenotype). Many of them I've seen marketed as for "show" have sway backs. Our genetics advisor/buddy wasn't real fond of the look (for structural reasons I guess). So between that and the EPDs on the bull I linked to, it seemed odd to me that that bull was meant as an idealized representative of the breed. The fairs I'd go to, the winning animals sold at a premium due to their value as breeding stock, etc.
So, back to my original question: I'm not anti-show at all (think it's a great way for kids to learn). I just can't understand why there would be a complete dichotomy between what "works in the ring" and what "works in the field." You look at that bull's EPDs and it's such a "one of these things is not like the other" moment...
Is the answer that they are essentially now 2 entirely separate markets? ie, a show bull (or heifer) is used to beget other show bulls (or heifers) who are used to beget yet more show bulls/heifers.....rarely the twain shall meet?
 
I'm not anti-showing at all either, but I don't see why the judges at the shows evidently deliberately choose to give merit to traits that aren't beneficial for the producer.. this is where there is a disconnect. If you fix the judging so that the most productive, structurally correct animal will win (rather than a postlegged swayback furball), then the people raising animals for show will start to pay attention to these things.. since some of them will do anything to win, they're finally going to get in line with what's good for the cattlemen. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
You make good points and I totally agree. There are a lot of bulls in stud catalogs that I would never consider using for one reason or another. He's one of them. The thing we all love about the industry ( the ability to make our own breeding decisions ) is also one of our biggest downfalls. Across the industry we have a lack of consistency and I think that hurts the industry at the consumer level. I know when I buy chicken i bought chicken. I know what experience I will have regardless of when or where it's purchased. It's not the same with beef, consumers have both good and bad experiences with no real rhyme or reason.

Regardless, we are all beef producers and I can appreciate every segment of the industry.
 
boondocks":2a7shq59 said:
So, I'll admit to knowing nothing about the show market. I did grow up in ag country and spent time at the county fair watching the judging, etc. From there, I got the idea that the animals were hopefully good (even ideal) representatives of their breed. Was that wrong, or have things changed maybe?
Over the past couple of years, I had (accurately, I think) picked up that the current show animals are to have a certain "look" (phenotype). Many of them I've seen marketed as for "show" have sway backs. Our genetics advisor/buddy wasn't real fond of the look (for structural reasons I guess). So between that and the EPDs on the bull I linked to, it seemed odd to me that that bull was meant as an idealized representative of the breed. The fairs I'd go to, the winning animals sold at a premium due to their value as breeding stock, etc.
So, back to my original question: I'm not anti-show at all (think it's a great way for kids to learn). I just can't understand why there would be a complete dichotomy between what "works in the ring" and what "works in the field." You look at that bull's EPDs and it's such a "one of these things is not like the other" moment...
Is the answer that they are essentially now 2 entirely separate markets? ie, a show bull (or heifer) is used to beget other show bulls (or heifers) who are used to beget yet more show bulls/heifers.....rarely the twain shall meet?
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I understand your points, and they have real merit. But, who said this bull is for the show ring? The semen company. They will also say that certain bulls are calving ease, when their use in herds clearly says they are not. Just because of what a semen company put in an add in attempt to sell units, doesn't mean squat. I am very involved in the show world, and have never even heard of this bull prior to this, much less seen its offspring win anything significant. That in itself tells me that those so called show breeders are not as dumb as some think!

I will use a Limi breeder I know fairly well as a perfect example of a breeder who wins in the ring and gets the job done in the pasture as well. Look up Spring Creeks Cattle Co. Bart and Bob and family are some of the best cattlemen I know. They expect their stock to work for them in numbers that most people in the upper Midwest cannot fathom. Their cows are in groups that number in the hundreds on seriously hilly terrain and are not babied. They raise calves that have growth potential and longevity. And yet, somehow, they won the cow/calf champion title at junior nationals last year! They don't have climate controlled coolers and a team hired just to run the show string and clip and fit. They prove that an eye for phenotype, a good handle on EPDs and an in-depth understanding of pedigrees along with good husbandry practices can make a for a herd that can get it done in both the pasture and the ring.
 
Boot Jack Bulls":3bm4lmi2 said:
....who said this bull is for the show ring? The semen company. They will also say that certain bulls are calving ease,
when their use in herds clearly says they are not.
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Miss Information.... Select Sires does not calculate or control the EPD breed information.

Back to original question.... IF not for the Show Ring.... then what is the purpose?
Why choose to use either Double Black or First-N-Goal instead of any of the 60+ black angus bulls Select has available?

Select owns neither bull and the use for Show Ring comments come from the bull owners that formed the syndicate
to market them.
 
I've not contacted my salesmen, but when I bought SAV Angus Valley last year he was a calving ease bull. Today he is below average for the breed. He's not a new bull by any means and only the epd calculation changed. Boot jack has a point.

I don't mean this argumentative by any means, but this bull works for producers with cows who sales at weaning. Here we get paid for animals that are black, without ear, by the pound. I hate its different state to state but it is.

Regardless, we are all on the same team. There are so many against us, the last thing we need is to be against eachother.
 

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