When genetics throw you a curve ball

[TCRanch]

Vet was out yesterday to BANGS/pelvic measure my retained heifers and I'm still in shock over the results. They're measured at 11 months instead of the standard 12 so the scores are slightly lower than benchmark but my vet takes that into consideration when calculating the potential for calving difficulty. One of my faves is Derby/427D, probably a good 750 lbs. and comes from a lineage of top producers (I've retained almost every heifer). I generally don't retain if they score less than 150 (should easily have a 72 lb. calf) & Derby was a pitiful 132.25 while her sister I retained 3 years ago when their dam was a first calf heifer scored 162. Minimum score on anything I've ever seen published was 140 (again, at 12 months). What happened?? Different bull as the sire could be a factor but that same bull sired another retained heifer this year that was orphaned at 4 months, is the smallest of the group & scored 156.25 (pretty average for that lineage). So I'm just saying, had they not been measured I would have kept Derby without a 2nd thought & ended up with a potential train wreck. I've kept heifers that were boarder line, knowing I would have to watch closely & possibly pull but she's too much of a risk. Tried to post pics but keep getting the message:
It was not possible to determine the dimensions of the image. Please verify that the URL you entered is correct.

 

[Bright Raven]

Form and function is most commonly the influence of inheritance. You cannot rule out other influences such as disease, environment or developmental anomalies. I suspect the heifer is expressing a condition in the genome that is rarely expressed. When we observe the phenotype, we only see the tip of the iceberg. Beneath the hide is a wide range of possibilities just waiting for the right combination of genetic factors for those possibilities to be expressed. The probability for the combination that produced Derby's 132 square centimeters may be only 1 in a 100 births with those parents.

 

[76 Bar]

Sorry your pelvic results were disappointing. You've likely read this article:
http://www.iowabeefcenter.org/bch/PelvicMeasurements.pdf
Pelvic measured replacements for many years. Patronized a seed stock breeder who I long admired and provided that data but ceased doing so. Frustrating that the purebred industry is focused on terminal traits and ignored ERT's.

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks, Ron. A fluke. Makes me feel better.

76 Bar I have read that article but it's been a while, thanks for the refresher.

Not totally disappointing yesterday as the others did fine with Ebony leading the pack by scoring a solid 169. Baby's got back!!

 

[76 Bar]

;-) Figured you'd read it. Onwards & upwards. :nod:

 

[talltimber]

I didn't have my current hfrs measured. Hoping for the best

 

[TCRanch]

I didn't have my current hfrs measured. Hoping for the best

There's no guarantee either way! I have kept back heifers that only scored 144 & had a 70 lb calf no problem. And I pulled one on a heifer that scored 162, primarily because she was tired, distracted & simply taking too long - most likely my fault because I was watching her (I now make a point of hiding, watching between slats in the barn if at all possible).
Good luck! Calving shouldn't officially kick off until the 27th but some of mine are already starting to bag. If they could just hold off through this next round of snow/ice/rain this week, that'd be great.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Guess I've just been "lucky". I have NEVER pelvic measured a female in only 48 years. Not saying you shouldn't. I just never have - maybe my bad.

 

[Bright Raven]

Guess I've just been "lucky". I have NEVER pelvic measured a female in only 48 years. Not saying you shouldn't. I just never have - maybe my bad.

I do because of CAIP PROGRAM

 

[fhug]

Guess I've just been "lucky". I have NEVER pelvic measured a female in only 48 years. Not saying you shouldn't. I just never have - maybe my bad.

Same for us.

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

Guess I've just been "lucky". I have NEVER pelvic measured a female in only 48 years. Not saying you shouldn't. I just never have - maybe my bad.

Me either Jeanne!

 

[talltimber]

I bought my first set of hfrs (bred) I calved out and had quite a bit of trouble. The next hfrs were my own and I wanted to see where they were in size. I had no trouble with them, not having anything to do with the measuring, but I didn't have to worry about that in the meantime. I was gunshy enough waiting on them to calve, given my experience the first go round with the bought hfrs. I don't expect trouble with these, but freak things happen, as TC pointed out.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I would be hard pressed to "cull" a top notch heifer because "someone" measured her and the total didn't come out good enough.
To me, the most important thing in management tools to help successful first calf heifers at calving, is growing them out to their potential, not getting them obese, and using a moderate CE bull.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Guess I've just been "lucky". I have NEVER pelvic measured a female in only 48 years. Not saying you shouldn't. I just never have - maybe my bad.

Me too. However, it'd be very interesting. Not sure if it wold make a big difference in the selection, but sure would be fun to see if it shows their calving ability in the future. However, I do know which ones are capable to calve bigger calf, once they deliver their first calf. Had once a heifer, which was a tiny, hardly 1100lbs at the calving, maybe closer to 1000lb and calved with abit over than 110lbs calf unassisted. I guess she would have scored pretty high!

 

[Stocker Steve]

What was your initial cull rate for pelvic measurements ?

Did the cull rate change over time ?

 

[TCRanch]

I would be hard pressed to "cull" a top notch heifer because "someone" measured her and the total didn't come out good enough.
To me, the most important thing in management tools to help successful first calf heifers at calving, is growing them out to their potential, not getting them obese, and using a moderate CE bull.

With all due respect, Jeanne, if a heifer has a very small pelvic score, regardless of lineage or her size/condition, I don't consider her top notch. And I have a lot of respect for my vet, trust his opionion & have confidence in his ability to accurately measure. All my bulls are calving ease. Could she calve unassisted? Possibly. But for me, it's not worth the risk.

 

[W.B.]

I would be hard pressed to "cull" a top notch heifer because "someone" measured her and the total didn't come out good enough.
To me, the most important thing in management tools to help successful first calf heifers at calving, is growing them out to their potential, not getting them obese, and using a moderate CE bull.

With all due respect, Jeanne, if a heifer has a very small pelvic score, regardless of lineage or her size/condition, I don't consider her top notch. And I have a lot of respect for my vet, trust his opionion & have confidence in his ability to accurately measure. All my bulls are calving ease. Could she calve unassisted? Possibly. But for me, it's not worth the risk.

I agree, it costs too much to develop replacements to be wrong. The better job we do in selection as yearlings the better our cowherd becomes. I had our vet. Pelvic measure our yearlings last year and plan on making it an annual practice. She didn't actually measure I wanted her to find any small pelvises and poor tracts and we culled accordingly. Labor is getting shorter on our operation and I don't need any unnecessary calving difficulties at calving. Hopefully no vet visits during calving. Yes we use proven low birth Bulls ai and the cleanup bulls are home raised low birth bulls.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I would be hard pressed to "cull" a top notch heifer because "someone" measured her and the total didn't come out good enough.
To me, the most important thing in management tools to help successful first calf heifers at calving, is growing them out to their potential, not getting them obese, and using a moderate CE bull.

With all due respect, Jeanne, if a heifer has a very small pelvic score, regardless of lineage or her size/condition, I don't consider her top notch. And I have a lot of respect for my vet, trust his opionion & have confidence in his ability to accurately measure. All my bulls are calving ease. Could she calve unassisted? Possibly. But for me, it's not worth the risk.

Possibly the fact that I don't stress using CE bulls, may be the reason I have not encountered small pelvic problems. I don't know the reason, but after 48 years of calving out heifers and only having one (many, many years ago - daughter's of course!) that I would cull because she had too small a pelvic area to have her calf - something must be working right. I am not going to try to figure it out - just glad I don't have that problem.