What is she missing?

[agmantoo]

Nesikep

I am a low cost producer and I watch the input expenses. One thing that I do not short the herd on is minerals. As stated above. Use loose minerals not the blocks to enable the animals to access as much mineral as they want. If you keep the mineral available 24/7 they will not consume all that much. You need to start the regimen ASAP rather than wait as it will take time to meet the needs.
Here is what I am using now to dispense the minerals. The tires appear small but the one on top is the replacement tire for a dual setup on a semi. The bottom tire is a conventional semi tire. It will hold 100 lbs easily and 150 lbs if you use your hands to distribute the minerals. I have never had the animals to turn this over.

 

[RD-Sam]

Look at the VitaFerm loose mineral, they have an excellent product. I use the Cattlemans Blend throughout the year, except spring time we switch to a high mag, I think it's ConceptAid, but I would have to look it up. They have all the mineral you are looking for in one bag.

 

[Nesikep]

I'm feeding 9:18 now to the entire herd, they're probably all low on phosphorus as they're pretty much always on Alfalfa. After they've been on that for a while I might switch to a 1:1. The entire herd doesn't seem to be too keen on the 9:18, but I'm giving the cow in question about 2 oz a day by hand for a while...

rockridgecattle - That cow was a top producer, pretty much always had the biggest calf whether it was a heifer or steer

With all my mineral deficiency research I have done recently I created a document which I posted in another thread, may be of interest to some people


Going back through my memory, this cow's mother died suddenly about 5 years ago, we dont' know the causes, she was 16 and had no calf that year, was on hay through that summer... Looking back, that could have been sudden heart failure which is a symptom of copper deficiency. I posted a pic of her a long time ago asking what breed she was, most people said pure hereford, but since it seems that her family requires more copper, maybe she did have Simm in her as well

 

[faster horses]

I would say you definitely need to get loose mineral. And I can't understand your
9:18 ratio, C to P. I am a mineral dealer and you should never feed a mineral with
more phosphorus than calcium~anyway that's the way it is in the US, and I
can't imagine Alberta being different. Who suggested 9:18 to you?
9:18 is even too high in phos, IMO; higher % than anything
we sell. Are you SURE it is 9:18 or 18:9?
Here in Montana our most popular formula is 14-6 Cal-Phos and recommended at
3-4 oz per head per day. Remember, phos is bitter
and if there is too much of it, cows will not eat it. Cattle eat grams, not %. So a
high % phos that they won't eat won't do them a bit of good. What is
recommended is 2 to 1 Cal to Phos, 3-1 and even 6-1 cal to phos.
My advise would to be to find a 2-1 (or close to that ratio) cal to phos LOOSE mineral.
And feed it this winter so your cows have good colostrum when they calve
which will give the calves an excellent immune system. Mineral supplementation
during the winter is the most important time, due to the cow being with calf. So
don't delay...
Hope this helps!

 

[Nesikep]

I'm sure it's 9:18... I posted the blood test, which shows a high normal calcium, and a very low phosphorus, hence the 1:2 ratio... most ranchers around here seem to feed it. I might use it for a while to get phosphorus levels back to normal, then switch to a lower P ratio once the deficiency has been corrected

Agmantoo, that looks like a decent feeder, I'll keep my eye open for such a top tire, but I might mount it to an old wheel weight (100 lb'er) for the bottom which should work pretty well too

 

[agmantoo]

You may find this interesting reading
http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ansci/beef/as1286w.htm

My cattle have always eaten dirt. They paw holes in the pastures in a few different places, mostly in red dirt. I have fed at least 8 different mineral mixes and the problem still exists with the cattle making holes. Of the minerals I have fed I have kept a label from each one. I see that the phosphorus levels/ratios are seemingly, to me, low after following this discussion.

 

[TexasBred]

I'm sure it's 9:18... I posted the blood test, which shows a high normal calcium, and a very low phosphorus, hence the 1:2 ratio... most ranchers around here seem to feed it. I might use it for a while to get phosphorus levels back to normal, then switch to a lower P ratio once the deficiency has been corrected

Agmantoo, that looks like a decent feeder, I'll keep my eye open for such a top tire, but I might mount it to an old wheel weight (100 lb'er) for the bottom which should work pretty well too

Nesi it looks like you labeling in Canada might be different than down here. Reversed in fact. A 9:18 down here would be 9% ca. and 18% ph. but if I understand you correctly your saying just the reverse. About the only times I would use that ratio of cah would be in as a close up mineral for dairy cattle and then it would have to include anionic salts. Down this way 12:12 is feed more often than anything and some will go to a 12:6 or a 14:7 with chelated minerals. If you get a chance you might check that tag one more time just for the heck of it.

 

[hillsdown]

See if you can get Cargill Onxy if at all possible ,if not Emerald. The price is not that much different between the two. I use emerald all year round with also access to hi boot mineral blocks ,and then about a 3 weeks after calving has started switch to onyx so I can get them coming into heats soon for AI'ing..

Minerals are the cheapest thing you can add to your feed program, it may cost a lot to start them from scratch again but once you have them on a steady, good mineral program you will be $'s ahead .

 

[Nesikep]

I'm positive that our naming standards are the same, this mineral is 9% Ca, 18% P... Apperently the phosphorus is the most expensive part of a supplement, so it's not profitable to feed more of it than necessary.

HD, well, if this cow can wean a 740 lb steer being severely deficient, I'd like to know what she can do with good mineral, as well as the others... I think we may have culled several animals for poor fertility, etc when it may well have been a deficiency


I was doing a bunch of reading about mercury poisoning, unfortunatly human specific, but it seems like amalgam tooth fillings may be causing MS, lupus, epiliepsy, autism, depression, allergies and about 50 other disorders.. pretty scary

 

[hillsdown]

HD, well, if this cow can wean a 740 lb steer being severely deficient, I'd like to know what she can do with good mineral, as well as the others... I think we may have culled several animals for poor fertility, etc when it may well have been a deficiency

I am thinking that you might have gotten rid of some really good gals for the wrong reason as well. Minerals is something that will not cause harm to the herd and if you still have problems then you can for sure rule that out.

Also I have seen them ween calves at great weights but then not breed back, breed back way late and/or then have problems with retained placenta afterwards because of deficiencies .

Best of luck Nesi and sure hope it all works out. Keep us posted as this is all really informative . :tiphat:

 

[Nesikep]

well, I've been giving her a small handful (what you can hold in your fist without any dribbling out) of the 9:18 every day or so, and at first she really didn't like it, nor did any of the rest of the herd, but they seem to have taken a liking to it,... today I put some fresh 50/50 salt mix out and they were all licking away at it despite having a salt block, so that's a sign that they've figured out it has what they're missing...

This cow seems to be in the last group you mentioned, weans a big calf but breeds back slow and has RP

I also had a good talk with our vet and he said she may also have endometriosis, which would cause her not to breed back, he was impressed with my record keeping, as I had the date for each time she was in heat all summer, and most times it was 20 plus/minus 2 days, however there was one time where it was 30 days, which means she did conceive, but either because of malnutrition or an infection, lost it... Copper is important to the immune system, so that could be an aggravating cause of the endometriosis... He reccomended a lavage with XNL (or something like that) which would help. he also suggested doing an ultrasound 11-14 days after a heat to see the embryo and/or scar tissue.

Anyhow, they're licking the good stuff now, lets see what next spring brings us... I may still give this cow a selenium booster shot before the next time she calves (if she ever does)

 

[Nesikep]

Well it would appear as the combination of weaning the calf and the mineral supplements have enabled her to breed back (she was due in heat monday and wasn't)... now as long as she doesn't have an early miscarriage from endometriosis or something she'll be OK

My vet also warned me of overfeeding mineral supplements, and I can see why, I put out about 10 lbs of 50/50 salt/min mix yesterday and it was gone today (20 head), so I'm going to put a lot more salt into the mix so they all get some, and stop overeating it.

her weaned steer is huge at 8 months (weaned at 7), here he is

 

[Nesikep]

Oh, and I found an old picture of this cow from summer time 4 years ago, and can see the streaking in her fur back then as well... guess it's been a while since we've been short on copper.... the salt blocks don't contain nearly enough (loose mineral has about 4x as much)

 

[HomePlaceAngus]

I just have not had much luck using mineral blocks. We free-feed loose minerals. They really eat it down and we don't have any deficiency problems. As for weaning the calf, if she is holding her condition well and raising that kind of a calf, why would you want to wean it early. It sounds like she is a heck of a cow. I would take a dozen just like her. I think it is possible that the fact that she is having trouble getting pregnant is less her fault and more what you might be doing wrong or not doing. Good Luck with her.

 

[Nesikep]

that's what I'm thinking... she may be susceptible to endometriosis partly because she had RP, caused by low selenium, and poor immune system response caused by the low copper level. she does hold her condition well, and this fall she barely fit into the headgate (opening the side gates was an interesting eperience) when I took the blood. It seems that since I weaned the calf, and more importantly gave her the minerals she was missing, she bred back right away. I will have to wait until next year to be able to be able to report on how the rest of the herd breeds back. this year there were about 75% bred the first cycle, maybe next year it'll be 90%... Her maternal sister is going to have her 15th calf in the spring (and early this time), and I'll see if she breeds back right away again too... speaking of... Does anyone cull a cow who produces well just because she is old? I give this old girl a bit of grain (10 lb a week after calving) and a bit more hay in the winter, which I consider a better investment than keeping a heifer which I am not certain about

 

[rockridgecattle]

When cattle are defficeint in mineral they tend to gorge themselves on it right away. After a bag or two, depending on your herd size, they seem to level out and consume at a slower more steady pace. Don't add too much more salt, they will level off soon enough

 

[Nesikep]

I'm finding that about a 33% mineral mix yields a reasonable consumption rate, when it was at 50% they were eating about 10 lbs a day (20 head), at 33% 10 lbs lasts a couple days... I'm not in a hurry to give them a ton of mineral, we calf out later than most people... I just want them to get some year round... My vet warned me about overfeeding mineral, so I'm taking that caution, and at 45$ a bag of mineral they'll eat your wallet out in a hurry... I also have some beef mineral mix without a tag so who knows how much of what is in that, and I add a bit of that in every batch until it's done

 

[Nesikep]

Well, I took my old cow out of pasture and put her on hay with my weaned heifers a couple days ago, and I noticed this old cow's hooves are 'peeling' the outer layer off a bit, particularly on the front hooves.. this cow is 16 and has never had hoof problems, and hardly ever needed trimming, I was wondering if this could also be a deficiency of some sort (Vit E?? maybe?). It's not causing her any pain or limping, so as long as it doesn't go up the hoof too far she'll be alright in the coral for the winter.. I'll try and take a pic and post it on monday

 

[Nesikep]

Well, I thought I'd update this thread... The cow in I started it for has since died of a stroke (of all things) this spring, but who knows the root causes of that (endometritis is a possibility). She had a bull calf in August of last year that I sold 2 weeks ago, weaned at 6 month, 700 lbs at 7 1/2 months, and the two had to eat hay all winter, I imagine he'd have been bigger if he had grass to eat all that time.

Meanwhile, her full sister who I mentioned earlier has just had her 16th calf, and bred back on the first cycle 3 times in a row now.. I won't be breeding her again though as she has some bad arthritis and teeth now.

The daughter of the cow I started this thread for has her 2nd calf, her first was a steer that weaned at 670 lbs, and her daughter this year is very impressive, at 7 weeks she's somewhere in the 250 lb range and built really well. As for breedback last year, I had 16 in the first cycle, 4 in the second, and a lousy cow that makes small calves, well, she was in the 3rd of 4th cycle... sometime in may she ought to calf.

 

[Lucky_P]

The 'red' trace-mineralized salt blocks rarely contain enough Copper or Selenium to be regarded as any sort of a significant mineral supplement - particularly if you're located in an area where soil levels of Cu or Se are low - or if there are 'competing' minerals, like S, Fe, Mo, etc. present in the soil or other feeds.
Those red salt blocks actually contain iron oxide as a coloring agent/filler - and even though FeO cannot be absorbed, it can block copper-absorption sites in the intestine, and may actually make copper deficiency worse than if you weren't supplementing at all.
I tell folks that if they're not going to feed a good balanced loose mineral (or, I guess a complete mineral block), that they're better off just putting out white salt blocks, and not bothering with the red trace-mineralized salt blocks.