What implement to use when and where???

[noriko]

I guess my topic alone means I am a beginner. I have 500 acres of dry land in Idaho. I never set out to be a real farmer because for one thing I am told you need at least 1500 acres to turn a profit so I got my land for santuary, peace and quiet. My land is loomy sandy soil with a layer of stuff they call hard pan about 4-5 feet deep. I would love to penetrate that but with a 7 shank ripper I barely touched it and when I do the ripper smokes in the ground and breaks shear bolts.

My question to ask you all is what implement to use to work my ground. It sure helped when I ripped it but for now I am mostly concerned with turning the soil and preparing a seed bed to plant types of grasses. I tried planting alfalfa and in dry land it is very tricky. I have a 14' offset disc that works great. I also got a 28' chisel plow i haven't used yet along with a 36' field cultivator and a 20' ground hog to prepare the seed bed. Although the disc works fine it is 14' and if I can get good or better results with a 28' chisel plow I would save time with one pass equals two of the disc. I was thinking to do it a second time crossways and then a pass with the field cultivator to make the hog work easy using only one pass and then the grain drill. Regarding my equipment i just kept buying bigger implements as I bought a second tractor. My first tractor is a case 4690 4WD 225 Horse and my second is a 4890 4WD with a cummins 350 hp engine swap.

Can I get any opinions on what implement to use and how many passes?

I'd really appreciate it! :cboy:

 

[Bez!]

I guess my topic alone means I am a beginner. I have 500 acres of dry land in Idaho. I never set out to be a real farmer because for one thing I am told you need at least 1500 acres to turn a profit so I got my land for santuary, peace and quiet. My land is loomy sandy soil with a layer of stuff they call hard pan about 4-5 feet deep. I would love to penetrate that but with a 7 shank ripper I barely touched it and when I do the ripper smokes in the ground and breaks shear bolts.

My question to ask you all is what implement to use to work my ground. It sure helped when I ripped it but for now I am mostly concerned with turning the soil and preparing a seed bed to plant types of grasses. I tried planting alfalfa and in dry land it is very tricky. I have a 14' offset disc that works great. I also got a 28' chisel plow i haven't used yet along with a 36' field cultivator and a 20' ground hog to prepare the seed bed. Although the disc works fine it is 14' and if I can get good or better results with a 28' chisel plow I would save time with one pass equals two of the disc. I was thinking to do it a second time crossways and then a pass with the field cultivator to make the hog work easy using only one pass and then the grain drill. Regarding my equipment i just kept buying bigger implements as I bought a second tractor. My first tractor is a case 4690 4WD 225 Horse and my second is a 4890 4WD with a cummins 350 hp engine swap.

Can I get any opinions on what implement to use and how many passes?

I'd really appreciate it! :cboy:

Well I wish I could say I gathered my land together for peace and tranquility - but:

I think you need to do a bit of research before you go to making too many decisions and doing what could be some real good damage. Along with that the simple loss of dollars due to the aforementioned comments makes me want to say - "Whoa up for a minute".

You have a few choices here - you can hire someone to tell you what to do, you can hire someone to do the work for you, you can ask the locals what they might do (good neighbours are actually a good thing), you can ask the local county ag rep what to do - or you can do nothing for a bit and take some courses over the next year.

In all honesty I might consider a combination of all of the above.

Lots more to chat about, but we need some info from you.

Does the work need to be done immediately?

Are you able to sit down with some of the above mentioned folks and set up a plan of attack?

Have you even thought of a plan at this time?

And so on.

Personally I think you might get some advice from the people I mentioned - then sit down and draw up your plan. Then I might hire someone to come in and help initially.

I am not so sure of your background, but I do know that neighbours will help if treated and asked right - but they might be a bit leary of letting you go to town on their own land - even though many hands makes light work.

You provide a little more info and you will probably get a lot more help from us invisible people.

Regards

Bez!

 

[dun]

Other then alfalfa, why try to break up the hardpan. Hardpan that I've seen ranges from a couple of inches to over 6 foot thick. If you have 4-5 feet of topsoil, just work with the upper surface. Grasses typically don;t send roots down that far anyway.
Disk it roll it and plant the grass seed of your choice with the drill. Find out what grasses grow best in your environment and figure out how your going to market the growth, i.e hay, silage, meat, etc.

d

 

[noriko]

Other then alfalfa, why try to break up the hardpan.

Wow! Thanks for a reply so fast. You answered that question... i.e. other than aflalfa why break the hardpan... I am told an alfalfa root goes up to 30' feet deep so for that reason i'd love to get rid of it but i checked into that and i hear it would take every bit of a D8 cat to do that deep and i might as well order an oil tanker load of diesel to do that job.

Relating to my question of which implement... i can do twice the work of my 14' offset disc with a 28' chisel plow so if a chisel plow would work as good or better than a disc i am all for that. My disc does work great though. Another reason to do any tillage at all is I have weeds and competitive growth to hinder a new planted crop so I want to start out clean. In Idaho they have laws against weeds so i am an outlaw at this time. Skeleton weed is one of the worst and i am harboring a fugitive so to make the county happy i gotta clean the place up. If not, i hear the county force sprays land and sends the bill and if you don't pay it the bill is added to your tax and if you don't pay it the county takes the land

 

[noriko]

I think you need to do a bit of research before you go to making too many decisions and doing what could be some real good damage. Along with that the simple loss of dollars due to the aforementioned comments makes me want to say - "Whoa up for a minute".


Not saying at all I tell you what kind of help to give me but here are my feelings which are good ones you stated!

You have a few choices here - you can hire someone to tell you what to do,

I did get a referral from simplot soil builders and the sky is the limit to their fees.

you can hire someone to do the work for you,

Yes but I got the equipment so I am hoping to do according to advice

you can ask the locals what they might do (good neighbours are actually a good thing),

Yes I did that. Small time farmers I asked are a puzzle to unlock as they say many answers for the same question.
some say that can't be done cause they never did it, some want you to fail to get a good talk going with each other.


you can ask the local county ag rep what to do

Good idea which i did. Great advice. I never asked them the disc or chisel plow idea yet

- or you can do nothing for a bit and take some courses over the next year.

I think my options are few enough to realize them and act on one of them. I already know discing works great but it will be twice as slow as chisel plowing as my plow is twice the size of the disc.

In all honesty I might consider a combination of all of the above.

Ithink Ican say i did that

Lots more to chat about, but we need some info from you.

Does the work need to be done immediately?

Now the land is kinda just sitting and pushing up grass but not a good stand so i'd like to do my part on weed control and get a competive stand against weeds to keep the local weed ghestoppo off my back.

Are you able to sit down with some of the above mentioned folks and set up a plan of attack?

You can say i am off base on this but... i talk to my neighbors and they do not welcome newcommers in the area. They take it personal if i come in out of the big city and get lucky and do good. I am told locals intentionally lead me astray with bad ideas just to see me fail and have a good laugh.

Have you even thought of a plan at this time?

MY PLAN:
Priority is wee control - second priorty is a crop to generate any amount of income through pasture which seems to be my best bet on dry land
PLAN OF ACTION:
Perpare the ground including turning the soil or working it in any way to remove competitive weed growth to enable a fighting chance of establishing a crop (other than weeds)
Incorporation of plan:
Either one or more of actions including discing twice, chisel plow twice, disc once and chisel once, field cultivate with 36' field cultivator and grain drill using case 28' grain drill.

NOTE: This plan must be done at a time hoping to take advantage of future rain. IF no rain last resort may be to do the above preparation techniques and either air seed in spring when I cannot drive a tractor on the land due to excessive mud, wait till I can drive on it and drill it and hope enough spring rains will germinate the seeds.

HOPE i did not leave anything out


And so on.

Personally I think you might get some advice from the people I mentioned - then sit down and draw up your plan. Then I might hire someone to come in and help initially.

I am not so sure of your background, but I do know that neighbours will help if treated and asked right - but they might be a bit leary of letting you go to town on their own land - even though many hands makes light work.

You provide a little more info and you will probably get a lot more help from us invisible people.

Regards

Bez!

 

[Bez!]

noriko - check your pm

Bez!

 

[NorCalFarms]

Don't mean to be nosey, but where in Idaho? Depending on your rainfall/year it can make a big difference. I wouldn't worry about trying to break up a hard pan that deep, I raise lots of alfalfa on land with a hard pan at 2.5-3 feet deep. Just cause a plant can send roots that deep doesn't mean they want to. If it is irrigated I'd say plant whatever you want and irrigate freqently, since it is dryland plant it to wheatgrass using whatever tillage you want (I'd recommend no till) this fall and spray it come spring. I know a guy in Bonner's Ferry who is an exellent agronomist if you want more advice. In a dryland situation tillage is not neccessarily the answer.

 

[noriko]

Don't mean to be nosey, but where in Idaho? Depending on your rainfall/year it can make a big difference. I wouldn't worry about trying to break up a hard pan that deep, I raise lots of alfalfa on land with a hard pan at 2.5-3 feet deep. Just cause a plant can send roots that deep doesn't mean they want to. If it is irrigated I'd say plant whatever you want and irrigate freqently, since it is dryland plant it to wheatgrass using whatever tillage you want (I'd recommend no till) this fall and spray it come spring. I know a guy in Bonner's Ferry who is an exellent agronomist if you want more advice. In a dryland situation tillage is not neccessarily the answer.

My land is between Weiser and Cambridge in the town of Midvale. I am told there is more rainfall there than in Weiser but higher altitude and shorter growing season. All i think i know about no till is not tilling the soil. if that means no disc or chisel plow i don't see how i can slow down or cut up growing weeds. Fields all around me grow alfalfa and tritakaylee (spelling?). I am learning that ground is fragile and the more I do till it the more it is slower to grow anything back because it is not choice farm ground. My best chance is just to "try" to grow weeds as they grow best whether I try to encourage them or not. Native type crested wheat grass, native grass, bolbus blue grass and maybe others are what i am told to be the best to plant. Very complicated to grow alfalfa... if you plant it in the fall maybe no rain and it must be a certain height before the freeze... If you plant it in the fall with tractors it is at least until April or May until you can drive without getting stuck. Threre are spring rains but if you wait til summer it is almost like the temperature of an Arizona desert which is according to forecasts... about 17 degrees cooler than hell. Air seeding seemed to be a good idea but all the sudden were high winds and higher high temps to dry out the ground.

I guess my biggest question was my chisel plow. I bought it but never used it yet so don't have any idea what the performance will be. What i did know about a chisel plow was that compared to a bottom plow, it was better in cases not to bring up lower soil to the surface or that was what i thought.

Thanks for any and all replies

 

[dun]

The reason for using the disk is because it will leave a smoother seedbed. then a chisel, that is if it's a finish disk and now a new ground disk. he primary importance of a smooth seed bed is for the later use of a tractor to run over it when either seeding, spraying, haying, etc.
But, everytime you till it by whatever means you will be exposing a new seed bank. That's why a fast growing cover crop is important, but even then you may still have to spray for weeds. If you apply fertilizers or other amendments to the soil, the deeper it's disked and the amount of disking can put them lower in the soil and bring poorer soil to the surface.

dun

 

[auctionboy]

Anyone that thinks it takes 1500 acres to make a profit is lieing or not so smart. I would stay away from the alfalfa. Fence it get some cattle in there brush hoge it and broadcast some clover.

 

[dun]

Anyone that thinks it takes 1500 acres to make a profit is lieing or not so smart. I would stay away from the alfalfa. Fence it get some cattle in there brush hoge it and broadcast some clover.

It's easy to make these types of pronouncements but without knowing the productive capabilities of the land, debt burden and marketing resources it's hard to know for sure.
A few years ago a number of farmers moved into this area to show these hillbillys how to farm the correct way. What had worked so well where they came from only contributed to their early losing they;re butts. The hillbillys are still doing ok, the others have left and gone back to where they came from.
Some folks find it hard to believe that there are areas of this country that require 300-350 acres per pair. What works in one locality may very well be a total loss in another.

dun

 

[NorCalFarms]

Easy killer ;-) I think he was just trying to explain that things are different where water doesn't fall from the sky very often. Many of my friends run cows out on the Nevada desert, 50-60 acres and up per pair isn't uncommon at all, for GOOD range. Oh, and that is only for spring, early summer. About this time of the year it drys up fast. Try making a living on a couple sections of that. I get pretty envious of fellers on this board who can graze much of the year, I figure on feeding hay 6 months and when it is warm enough to grow grass, you have to irrigate- ie move water all the time.

 

[Texan]

......so stop being such a condescending prick.

Maybe you need to stop being such an ignorant prick first. I offer as evidence the following quote:

Anyone that thinks it takes 1500 acres to make a profit is lieing or not so smart.

That could easily go down as one of the dumbest things you've ever posted. However, I realize that it wouldn't be an easy selection because of sheer volume. There are many 15,000 acre places that won't break even, much less make a profit. Since you're so smart, I'd like to see you take 1,500 acres in Terrell County, Texas and teach us how to make a profit.

There's a lot of pricks around here. Dun isn't one of them, but you are and I can be. You need to watch your mouth or hit the road.

 

[Mahoney Pursley Ranch]

Well said Texan. :clap:

 

[msscamp]

......so stop being such a condescending prick.

Maybe you need to stop being such an ignorant prick first. I offer as evidence the following quote:

Anyone that thinks it takes 1500 acres to make a profit is lieing or not so smart.

That could easily go down as one of the dumbest things you've ever posted. However, I realize that it wouldn't be an easy selection because of sheer volume. There are many 15,000 acre places that won't break even, much less make a profit. Since you're so smart, I'd like to see you take 1,500 acres in Terrell County, Texas and teach us how to make a profit.

There's a lot of pricks around here. Dun isn't one of them, but you are and I can be. You need to watch your mouth or hit the road.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[auctionboy]

Dun was typing like a know it all. You Texan don't even read before you start to tear apart what somebody says. My suggestion is if someone can't make do with 1500, or 15000 in your area then do someother type of farming. Also to the California guy you thinks rainfall doesn't effect everyone? I also have to feed hay for six months. What I was trying to say was work with what you have and use your head and you should be able to do something with 1500 acres to make a profit.

 

[dj]

Dun was typing like a know it all.

And your not? Can you tell the orginal poster the difference in what he asked?

 

[Bez!]

Dun was typing like a know it all. You Texan don't even read before you start to tear apart what somebody says. My suggestion is if someone can't make do with 1500, or 15000 in your area then do someother type of farming. Also to the California guy you thinks rainfall doesn't effect everyone? I also have to feed hay for six months. What I was trying to say was work with what you have and use your head and you should be able to do something with 1500 acres to make a profit.

Actually I read his post and found it to be quite a normal response - something anyone would have said in a conversation with friends.

It was you who started the name calling.

A real man would fess up and make an apology.

A whimpering snip or a coward would simply continue to attempt to justify what happened.

What type of person did your Daddy teach YOU to be?

Your response will be very telling.

Regards,

Bez!

 

[auctionboy]

I stand by every statement I have ever made on these boards!
I don't care if you think what he typed was okay. I also don't care what kind of person you think I am!

 

[noriko]

I think all you guys know what you are talking about and are correct and let me be the one to admit I still did not articulate my situation well enough for you folks to help me as I asked. So, I apologize for misleading some of you or making any generic remarks that are not true in other places.

I got that remark I said about needing 1500 acres from my local John Deere shop. I think what was said to me was a minimum of 1500 acres to "make a living" not a profit and maybe it was said to me thinking of a family situation and in my particular case I refer to dry land as well as a short growing season due to cold spring weather so I am sorry I did not make this clear and I think it is my fault which generated any negative feelings so I take responsibility on that totally. My particular land in addition is a bit sandy and it seems to take a long time for anything to grow. I did talk to the local ag expert and was told on my land they suspect i can run a total of about one cow per two acres but I think that does not allow for putting up hay for the winter so I guess that is summer pasture. I love my 14' offset disc. It does a terrific job but as the ground is sandy or loomy it seems to turn the soil to powder fast. Then, it sets up in a couple months or so. As far as no till ideas... I am afraid I already tilled the soil with the disc so I will remember that advice for next time. I think I made my decision I will use a pasture grass type mix instead of alfalfa because it is just too hard and chancy to make alfalfa grow in my area. I do talk to the local farmers and one I trust said his way is to plant one field at a time per season and if it don't work you don't lose all your fields... but if it does work you curse the rest of the fields for a while. I might sound like I pick and choose my advice given but mainly with locals some are too reserved and soft spoken to say much, some wait till you do something and then say, "I coulda told you it wouldn't work", some are conservative on what to hope for on a crop and some say I should get much more than others say. It is kinda exciting to realize i need to really understand the person who makes the comment and then i can understand if he is 100 percent or 50 percent credible. One neighbor told me I can't grow alfalfa in one field and i asked why and he said cause it has never been done and no one was ever successful at it. Well, as I look around a mile radius I see alfalfa all over so why not in front of me? I know standing water tends to kill alfalfa whether established or not and frost kills or hurts growth .... so ANYWAY I gotta tell you guys I respect and appreciate all your replies I really do. I am learning as I go and I swear if there is alfalfa in the field next to mine I will make it happen on my field soon also. I do remember a comment of a cover crop and I gotta say I don't think that is a good idea on dry land cause i am told a cover crop which kicks in before the main crop competes for water from the main crop and I think in dry land that is not a good idea. But, I might be wrong i am only going what I was told by others.

Thanks again for all your replies and I am actually hoping to make a humble living on about 160 acres. I thought about a vegetable farm kinda like a u pick it, maybe also a trout farm and chicken farm and some pigs and a cow or two as much as I got steak sauce for. I know this is easier said than done but I hope to find out.


thanks